A question of CBS era short scale quality...

smokes · Post by **smokes** » Sat May 18, 2013 2:17 pm

I've read conflicting opinions of the quality decline of non Strat / Tele guitars during the CBS era, with some claiming the Mustang family etc suffering even worse during this period, and others claiming that as most of the cost cutting methods were aimed at the best selling instruments, our beloved short scales / student models got off relatively unscathed.

I've never played a 50s or 60s Strat or Tele. I've played a few vintage short scales - mostly 70s, a couple of 60s. I've never come across a shitty neck pocket. In fact they've all been duck's arse tight. I've seen a cruddy finish on a 78 MM, and the saddles on the broncos seem brittle...

If I ever get to play a 50s/60s Strat, it better be pretty fukken special.

What do the experts among you reckon?

ekwatts · Post by **ekwatts** » Sat May 18, 2013 3:24 pm

A friend has a CBS era Tele, not a single problem with it. Good guitar.

smokes · Post by **smokes** » Sat May 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Yeah, no doubt...

Actually I was told by a guy in a vintage guitar shop that from a collectors point of view, good clean 70s telecasters were a good investment. He did happen to have a 70s tele in his shop window though!

I'd love to know roughly how many strats/teles/mustangs etc Fender have manufactured each year they've been going... I'm assuming there are way, way less of the 'student' models. Where the hell do all these guitars go though? I think I read that Gibson do 2000 guitars per week in one of their US factories... and that Fender US can do 300 -550 per day. I'd imagine Fender Japan's output is even higher.

robroe · Post by **robroe** » Sat May 18, 2013 4:51 pm

where do they go? I had 24 at one point. I am by no means a rich man. I'm not in the gutter or anything but average dude living in a 2 bedroom apt should not in theory have 24 guitars.

now think of the people with real money.

if I had real money I would have a real life fender color chart. every color I could find up on the wall

LizardKing · Post by **LizardKing** » Sat May 18, 2013 11:25 pm

robroe wrote:if I had real money I would have a real life fender color chart. every color I could find up on the wall

I predict you will be a guitar miser.
Old and alone in an apartment counting your guitars all day...

HNB · Post by **HNB** » Sat May 18, 2013 11:38 pm

LizardKing wrote:I predict you will be a guitar miser.
Old and alone in an apartment counting your guitars all day...

Me also! Me! Me! Me! Me!

BobArsecake · Post by **BobArsecake** » Sun May 19, 2013 12:10 am

I think a lot of it is just a matter them being more inconsistent. I've seen some truly woeful examples, mostly late 1970s. There was a Mustang that looked like there was an apartheid between the neck and the side of the neck pocket. As if they'd fallen out and were fighting to be as far away as possible. It was baffling. It was also a shit brown colour. It was in that famous guitar shop in NYC that shut down recently, if I remember correctly, and they were wanting around $700 or $800 for it D: Then again I've played some beauties from the same era.

No idea whether one two ranges suffered more than any others, though.

speedfish · Post by **speedfish** » Sun May 19, 2013 1:08 am

Here's a quote from Dan Smith(from Tony Bacon's The Fender Electric Guitar Book) who was brought in as Fender director of marketing electric guitars in 1981:

"Smith recalled an early shock as he toured the factory, before the four-bolt Strats had come on-stream. 'I remember looking at the body contours. People were complaining about contours, and here's a rack of 2,000 guitars. Every one of them had a different edge contour! We also went and pulled guitars out of the warehouse and did general re-inspections on them, 800-and-something guitars, and out of those I think only about 15 passed the existing criteria. So we sat down and re-wrote the criteria."

There are shit-loads of similar stories from others working for Fender during CBS's reign, way too many to mention here. I imagine that the shortscale guitars suffered no better fate. Doesn't mean that you can't love a CBS era guitar it just isn't up to the same standards and quality that Leo demanded.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Mon May 20, 2013 12:13 pm

I have a 70s Mustang that is an amazing player, plenty of people here have played it and would agree, but the bottom side of the neck pocket is not tight at all - it doesn't stop it being the best Mustang I've played. IMO the consistency isn't there in the CBS guitars, but there are some great guitars in there.

smokes · Post by **smokes** » Mon May 20, 2013 12:46 pm

NickD wrote:I have a 70s Mustang that is an amazing player, plenty of people here have played it and would agree, but the bottom side of the neck pocket is not tight at all - it doesn't stop it being the best Mustang I've played. IMO the consistency isn't there in the CBS guitars, but there are some great guitars in there.

I guess as long as there's a good contact between the bottom face of the neck heel and the body, it's all good. Actually I've often wondered about neck shims - for example I read teh kurtdz guitar tech used the cardboard from little hotel notebooks - surely that would dampen vibration massively?

smokes · Post by **smokes** » Mon May 20, 2013 12:48 pm

how about a neck plate, neck bolts and shim all forged from bell brass/cymbal alloy? ha

George · Post by **George** » Mon May 20, 2013 12:54 pm

i don't think shimming changes tone noticeably at all

smokes · Post by **smokes** » Mon May 20, 2013 1:03 pm

George wrote:i don't think shimming changes tone noticeably at all

I guess cos they're normally a thin sliver, and only under one end of the contacting surfaces. But you know sometimes if when playing your headstock contacts a hollow wall, and you hear it... surely a piece of thick notebook cardboard would lessen the effect?

smokes · Post by **smokes** » Mon May 20, 2013 1:04 pm

I mean if you put the cardboard between the headstock and the wall

George · Post by **George** » Mon May 20, 2013 1:10 pm

actually i think you'd notice very little difference in that scenario anyway, and how much of that difference would translate to your final sound once fed through pickups, amps, speaker etc?

things like this are all micro changes that are negligible to tone. your primary goal should be to set up a well playing guitar, if it requires a shim (and some do), so be it

Dillon · Post by **Dillon** » Mon May 20, 2013 3:34 pm

It's a toss-up for me. I've played a few late-60s Jags and loved all of them. Couldn't afford them or else they'd be mine. Same as everyone else says, QC went downhill in the 70s. However, that also means there are some shining examples out there. And 70s Jags are getting quite rare, which is nice if you have one. But unfortunately I think there will always be that negative stigma associated with CBS-era guitars, which means they'll never really be as collectible, if that matters.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon May 20, 2013 6:04 pm

I've never understood all the CBS hate/fear. There were certainly some quality control issues(usually manifested in large neck pocket gaps), but in my experience they're typically just aesthetic problems and don't impact playability. I've had a few CBS era Mustangs and MMs and one Bronco, and never been dissatisfied with one, nor have I personally played one that really sucked. My 69 Maverick is a CBS "let's get rid of stuff" special and even it's great.

Addam · Post by **Addam** » Mon May 20, 2013 7:07 pm

I'm all for maintaining the myth that '70s fenders are all shite.
With any luck, it will keep the prices down and I can afford to get another one...

BTW, I love my early '70s Bronco.

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Tue May 21, 2013 12:20 pm

I have encountered 2 cbs era guitars that were shit quility, one was the 25th annivarsery strat, square neck pocket, wonkey routing, but.... the owner LOVED it.
the other was a tele dlx that i took to bro-fest. same deal with sketchy neck pocket and routing, BUT! the Owner LOVES it, and everyone at bro-fest really liked it as well. keep in mind tho, it had been tinkered with alot, and i set it up. im sort of a beast at setting up guitars.
The worst I have ever seen was actually a shortscale at the chicago music exchange, i think it was a swinger so..... that makes alot of sense, but the neck pocket extended FAR past the neck on the treble side and it looked all..... sideways, but the swinger was just made to use up parts so.... you know.

LizardKing · Post by **LizardKing** » Tue May 21, 2013 4:07 pm

robert(original) wrote:keep in mind tho, it had been tinkered with alot, and i set it up. im sort of a beast at setting up guitars.

As usual, the setup makes all the difference.