And then there's this....
[youtube][/youtube]
12 string guitars?
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westtexasred
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Not that much to add to the thread (EDIT: I JUST WROTE THE MASS OF THOUGHTS BELOW LOL), but if I did things all over again or had less cash to work with I would vouch for a '90s MIK Dano DC12 above other options from experience. Lightweight and very playable, for the money you'll get pretty close to where most would need to be, and if needed, a little work and higher output Strat bridge pickup will get you into another zone. Most of all, the Gotoh-style bridges are a cinch to work with and will save you a mountain of heartbreak.
Just one thing though, when tracking and mixing, in general I've found the most usable frequencies come from mid position of a 2-pickup 12 stringer. Many moons ago I borrowed a friend's Danelectro and was automatically drawn to "bridge only" use because I simply wanted the lower octave to be heard, but even with studio shenanigans of various sorts the engineer had significant trouble extracting any meat of the overall tone. Enter mid position and letting him handle the compression and EQ balance yielded much better results when trying to have the guitar "sit" in the mix alongside the other guitars. This is one reason why I avoided the Strat-XII in the first place, as I find the 5-way more hindering than enabling.
I'll go right on ahead and confess that I feel my Rickenbacker 360/12 is not that much of an "upgrade" of any sort, and has become more or less an ongoing wrestling match in the long run. Restringing woes of ball-ends falling out of the tailpiece and trying to negotiate the crowded tuners when completely removing a string of the pegs, and don't get me started on the impossible intonation factor. The neck/nut? I have little girl fingers and thus experience less frustration than fat fingered friends, but I get their beef with anything from Santa Ana that's not a 660/12.
What do I like about it? Mainly two things:
(1) The Hi-gains are punchy and very responsive, and to my ears provide an excellent 12-string source for tracking to tape/digital that engineers won't complain about being weak or lacking in frequency response. They have more mids and thump than toasters, but some well-placed hi-pass or notch filtering reveals what may not be initially heard outright. Simply stated, they certainly don't lack high end at all...If I want oomph and amp drive I'll use my Pedalworx McSqueeze, if I want character it's the Moollon Compressor, and if it's delightful McGuinn chim-chimery rhymnies, that's when I reach for my revolver I pull out the Janglebox. From what I've read and even seen first hand from lending the 360/12 to others, many a disappointed Ric-o-Noob makes the mistake of not working with the very functional blend knob, which I invariably use in mid position to dial out a wee bit of the boomy neck pickup. It's a delicate balance, but when the mix is done, the 360/12 comes out full and rich.
(2) The acoustic nature of the instrument coupled with the tailpiece harmonics. If I get all cryptic and use an analogy, if the Jazzmaster had a Leo Quon Badass bridge it may ring for days, but I probably couldn't imagine preferring it over the quirks that Leo Fender's '59 failure now is known for. There's a sheen and shine about the 360/12 that I prefer over Danos in particular when open chords are played that is very reminiscent of my Jazzmaster, and the additional "body" of the guitar's tone is notable as well amidst the Hi-Gains plunk and thump. WIth the shallow saddle break angle and trapeze combined with the above, what you get sounds old, "rattley" and brilliant all at once.
That odd combination seems to be the unique sound of a Ric's unusual jangle, whereas the low-output lipsticks and fixed bridges of Danelectros I've played seem to have a delightfully vibrant chime about them. It's no wonder from design why they're more different sounding than alike.
I'll lastly dare to mention that all Ric 12 stringers' Bass-Octave string arrangement on the nut is possibly superior for arpeggiated picking where the 12 string effect itself is more desired. Guys on TDPRI have debated this at length and most of us are divided on whether it actaually matters enough to make a difference, but I'm convinced that it's a notable comparison, as upstrokes have the potential to ring out the upper octave with slightly more brightness, though heavily depending on the strength of one's picking attack.
Just one thing though, when tracking and mixing, in general I've found the most usable frequencies come from mid position of a 2-pickup 12 stringer. Many moons ago I borrowed a friend's Danelectro and was automatically drawn to "bridge only" use because I simply wanted the lower octave to be heard, but even with studio shenanigans of various sorts the engineer had significant trouble extracting any meat of the overall tone. Enter mid position and letting him handle the compression and EQ balance yielded much better results when trying to have the guitar "sit" in the mix alongside the other guitars. This is one reason why I avoided the Strat-XII in the first place, as I find the 5-way more hindering than enabling.
I'll go right on ahead and confess that I feel my Rickenbacker 360/12 is not that much of an "upgrade" of any sort, and has become more or less an ongoing wrestling match in the long run. Restringing woes of ball-ends falling out of the tailpiece and trying to negotiate the crowded tuners when completely removing a string of the pegs, and don't get me started on the impossible intonation factor. The neck/nut? I have little girl fingers and thus experience less frustration than fat fingered friends, but I get their beef with anything from Santa Ana that's not a 660/12.
What do I like about it? Mainly two things:
(1) The Hi-gains are punchy and very responsive, and to my ears provide an excellent 12-string source for tracking to tape/digital that engineers won't complain about being weak or lacking in frequency response. They have more mids and thump than toasters, but some well-placed hi-pass or notch filtering reveals what may not be initially heard outright. Simply stated, they certainly don't lack high end at all...If I want oomph and amp drive I'll use my Pedalworx McSqueeze, if I want character it's the Moollon Compressor, and if it's delightful McGuinn chim-chimery rhymnies, that's when I reach for my revolver I pull out the Janglebox. From what I've read and even seen first hand from lending the 360/12 to others, many a disappointed Ric-o-Noob makes the mistake of not working with the very functional blend knob, which I invariably use in mid position to dial out a wee bit of the boomy neck pickup. It's a delicate balance, but when the mix is done, the 360/12 comes out full and rich.
(2) The acoustic nature of the instrument coupled with the tailpiece harmonics. If I get all cryptic and use an analogy, if the Jazzmaster had a Leo Quon Badass bridge it may ring for days, but I probably couldn't imagine preferring it over the quirks that Leo Fender's '59 failure now is known for. There's a sheen and shine about the 360/12 that I prefer over Danos in particular when open chords are played that is very reminiscent of my Jazzmaster, and the additional "body" of the guitar's tone is notable as well amidst the Hi-Gains plunk and thump. WIth the shallow saddle break angle and trapeze combined with the above, what you get sounds old, "rattley" and brilliant all at once.
That odd combination seems to be the unique sound of a Ric's unusual jangle, whereas the low-output lipsticks and fixed bridges of Danelectros I've played seem to have a delightfully vibrant chime about them. It's no wonder from design why they're more different sounding than alike.
I'll lastly dare to mention that all Ric 12 stringers' Bass-Octave string arrangement on the nut is possibly superior for arpeggiated picking where the 12 string effect itself is more desired. Guys on TDPRI have debated this at length and most of us are divided on whether it actaually matters enough to make a difference, but I'm convinced that it's a notable comparison, as upstrokes have the potential to ring out the upper octave with slightly more brightness, though heavily depending on the strength of one's picking attack.
Speaking of the 360/12...
And to continue the lament of my work with FROMM this past autumn, I regret being sick and not there in the studio on the day that one of the engineers mixed the track dochak (Arrival), as the 360/12 ended up being buried in the mix rather than tightly compressed and making a proper entrance at 2:19 and 3:06 as I had intended when arranging the track. Add the excessive reverb of the main vocals in the refrain and she replacing my original acoustic guitar track with her irregular strum in the studio, and you just might understand my ongoing whiney lament, but at least I'm glad the 12 string wasn't taken out altogether.
It almost worked
[youtube][/youtube]
And to continue the lament of my work with FROMM this past autumn, I regret being sick and not there in the studio on the day that one of the engineers mixed the track dochak (Arrival), as the 360/12 ended up being buried in the mix rather than tightly compressed and making a proper entrance at 2:19 and 3:06 as I had intended when arranging the track. Add the excessive reverb of the main vocals in the refrain and she replacing my original acoustic guitar track with her irregular strum in the studio, and you just might understand my ongoing whiney lament, but at least I'm glad the 12 string wasn't taken out altogether.
It almost worked
[youtube][/youtube]
Right had a good look over...
Seems solid, neck fits well (however the fretboard is glued on? Never seen this on a maple neck) the bridge has intonation adjustments for each string, the black pickguard that came with it looks like it was cut out with a Stanley knife... which is ok as I have a tort guard waiting to replace it.
Photo bomb:
12 Tele
Seems solid, neck fits well (however the fretboard is glued on? Never seen this on a maple neck) the bridge has intonation adjustments for each string, the black pickguard that came with it looks like it was cut out with a Stanley knife... which is ok as I have a tort guard waiting to replace it.
Photo bomb:
12 Tele
XY
The 12 string sounds nice but your right it should be louder... was that the Ric?ultratwin wrote:Speaking of the 360/12...
And to continue the lament of my work with FROMM this past autumn, I regret being sick and not there in the studio on the day that one of the engineers mixed the track dochak (Arrival), as the 360/12 ended up being buried in the mix rather than tightly compressed and making a proper entrance at 2:19 and 3:06 as I had intended when arranging the track. Add the excessive reverb of the main vocals in the refrain and she replacing my original acoustic guitar track with her irregular strum in the studio, and you just might understand my ongoing whiney lament, but at least I'm glad the 12 string wasn't taken out altogether.
It almost worked
[youtube][/youtube]
XY
A lot of post-'65 Fenders were done this way, Hendrix's Woodstock/Band of Gypsys Strats were like that. There's pretty much no difference sound/resonance wise to a rosewood board on those, whereas the 50's style one-piece maple necks tend to have a brighter and snappier vibe with less sustain. Lots of Squiers, MIMs and most offbrand Fender styles have it. CBS started it to reintroduce a maple fingerboard as a special option, presumably while keeping neck construction the same process. The '90s Jeff Beck Strats with Laces were laminate boards either way. So many people confuse the tonal difference with the fingerboard wood rather than the overall neck construction, even though it's been proven time and time again by both composite material fingerboards sounding just like rosewood and by the japanese '57/'62 and MIM Classic '50s/'60s being identical models apart from the necks and yet having all the hallmarks of either decade's Strat (brighter and snappier '50s, darker and smoother '60s).dezb1 wrote:(however the fretboard is glued on? Never seen this on a maple neck)
This did away with the need for a skunk stripe but Fender started putting skunk stripes in all necks (even rosewood boarded ones) in the '70s, go figure. Anytime you see a Strat or Tele with no skunk stripe (a lot in '66-'69), the fingerboard had to have gone on after the truss rod.
Due to equal parts lacquer tint/nice bits of wood you can't always tell just looking at it with the older stuff... this board is glued on and the only way the owner realized it was due to the lack of a skunk stripe.
Aug wrote:which one of you bastards sent me an ebay question asking if you can get teh kurdtz with that 64 mustang?
robertOG wrote:fran & paul are some of the original gangstas of the JS days when you'd have to say "phuck"
George wrote:i've had a jay turser SG12, a dano dc12, a rickenbacker 620/12 and now own a strat 12, and fancy myself a bit of a fan of 12s these days.
jay turser SG 12 - fine build quality but woefully neck heavy and dark sounding due to humbuckers
dano dc12 - should be everyones first port of call due to the price and cos it nails the sound and is easy to play. buy used of coourse, ideally a 90s reissue (plain headstock)
rickenbacker 620/12- overpriced, agony to play with a very narrow neck. very overrated and very expensive
strat 12 - hard to come by as out of production. i bought mine for about £500. these are all MIJ and have the same pedigree. neck is not as wide as a DC12 or as thin as a rick. i love mine. basically a 12 string strat with all the nice sounds you'd expect.
there are a few others on the market like the italias (garbage) and schecters and what-have-you but i haven't really spent a lot of time with them. all said and done i'd get a DC12 if you're a fairly intermittent player because it's not worth the price to get anything else.
i play a 12 string all the time now (actually not so much while i have a bad finger because i don't have the dexterity so only play 6). they do require you to rethink things a little differently to find out what works and what doesn't but i love the sound. some people don't "get" 12 strings but if you take to them you'll be amazed at how fun they are
i'll say now that most people are terrible at playing 12 strings because they set them up all wrong. the first thing you should do is put a much lighter gauge string on them. i play 10s normally but on a 12 i put 8s. this is so you can play the thing properly. and this is why all youtube videos of rick purists sound terrible because they think flatwound 10s are "the right thing to do" LMAO. this is also generally why most people only use them for open chords at the 3rd fret and then sell them due to lack of interest because they can't do anything else.
another 12 string hack is to get rid of the extra b and high e strings and up the guage of them. this way you get the sweet octave drones without the strident chorusy b and e mush, and lead is much easier. the sound is more acute and direct because of it.
oh and lastly, consider a compressor if you want "the" 12 string sound. i have a MBM janglebox clone which is always on.
What brand of strings do you use I usually play daddarios but they only seem to sell 10s and I was going to go for 8s on your advice?
XY
Whatever. 10s are fine. The thinnest string on those is a .008 used for the high G string. I cannot imagine having a string even thinner than that on an electric guitar. A high g on a set of 8s would be what, a .006? I've never even seen a .006 guitar string.
I don't know what George is talking about flatwound 10's. The only strings I've ever found in stores locally are roundwound 10's and seriously why would you keep a guitar set up for weird ultralight gauges that are unavailable on the fly of you break one?
I don't know what George is talking about flatwound 10's. The only strings I've ever found in stores locally are roundwound 10's and seriously why would you keep a guitar set up for weird ultralight gauges that are unavailable on the fly of you break one?
http://m.reverbnation.com/artist/therelicsjams
Listen to the tracks "Lost in the Woods" and "Outta yer $". That's me playing $8 D'addario 10's on the same Danelectro DC-12 I sold George. The amp was a 1970 Twin Reverb.
Mojo arrows.
Listen to the tracks "Lost in the Woods" and "Outta yer $". That's me playing $8 D'addario 10's on the same Danelectro DC-12 I sold George. The amp was a 1970 Twin Reverb.
Mojo arrows.