another tube question

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:54 pm

i know i asked this before, and alot of people had really good input, but im about to buckle down and order some tubes(finally)
i need 2 pre-amp tubes,
and im looking for the cleanest possible sound.
i would love it if someone who has had actually experience with a certain brand or style could endorse them, rather than saying
"the website says they are the best!"
cuz we all know thats more hype than fact.

Post by **Doog** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:06 pm

What amp are they going into?

Post by **Mike** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:31 pm

I think this is the Cyber Twin, right? The two preamp tubes?

I think 12AX7s is what they take, I'm unsure if you can put a lower gain tube like a 12AU7 or a 12AT7 in there and have it still work, but here is a nice graphic:

filtercap · Post by **filtercap** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:07 pm

What Mike said, plus:

Yes, when it comes to the 12A_7 series of preamp tubes that most guitar amps use, you can usually substitute a lower-gain tube for a higher-gain tube. While reducing overdrive, this will also reduce overall volume. So I would not expect to get =louder= cleans, just that things will stay clean thru a bigger sweep of the dial.

I can't recall ever seeing one brand described as "cleaner" than another. One tube's clean tone or clipped tone may be better than another to a particular set of ears, but I'd expect the onset of clipping to happen at about the same place on the dial and at the same volume from tube to tube. Of course, here we're talking about two tubes of the same type (12AX7, for example), but different manufacturers.

As for manufacturer preference, I've been plenty happy with JJ tubes. That's not because I've compared too many other manufacturers. I've liked JJs and haven't needed to look further, that's all. (I do like JJs over Groove Tubes though.) By the way, JJ and some other manufacturers use the European numbering system for preamp tubes, where a 12AX7 is an ECC83 and so on. Same type tube, different name.

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:03 pm

Yeah its for the cyber twin,
it could be that there is no difference really but im pretty sure that the tubes that i put in(no name, used, from the music shop) gave me a loss of clarity and sounded more over driven, i ended up changing alot of my prior settings.
also rick, that runs the local music shop says that for the most part he can't tell a difference unless he puts sovteks in his mic pre-amp rather than electro harmonix

aphasiac · Post by **aphasiac** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:03 pm

Here's a compaarison of the same tubes (12AX7) made by different manufacturers:

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html

Apparently there is a difference, in both gain and voicing/EQ. My Marshall DSL came with cheap chinese tubes, and i swapped em out for JJs - huge difference, lower gain, loads more bass. so much nicer.

Post by **Doog** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:07 pm

Yeah, I've been happy with JJs too, although I've not really shopped around.

Post by **Mike** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:08 pm

The clean Hi-Fi end of things I would say EH have cornered.

I use Tung-Sols at the moment which are spanky, but I want to get some Harmas from Watford Valves after hearing euan's TT demo, they're really vibrant.

euan · Post by **euan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:12 pm

I'm actually thinking about getting some low gain preamp tubes for my Laney at the moment so it's a little bit more useable in the flat.

euan · Post by **euan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:24 pm

Mike you might want to have a look at the Watford Valve special offers.

Post by **Mike** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:33 pm

*fires up IE as their site is shit*

What in particular? Harma pres? I'm still waiting for their Cryo Retro Harma EL34s to come back in stock.

euan · Post by **euan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:45 pm

Ahhh ok. oops.

Post by **Mike** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:47 pm

Cunt.

euan · Post by **euan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:02 pm

Heavy.

Post by **dots** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:29 pm

Doog wrote:Yeah, I've been happy with JJs too, although I've not really shopped around.

since i started using jj's, i haven't felt the need to, honestly. i don't hear anything lacking, their cost is way decent, and they last a long time. since every other tube i tried before them was lacking in at least one of those aspects, i'm really hesitant to switch since i found a company that does all three.

filtercap · Post by **filtercap** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:53 pm

aphasiac wrote:Here's a compaarison of the same tubes (12AX7) made by different manufacturers:

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html

Apparently there is a difference, in both gain and voicing/EQ. My Marshall DSL came with cheap chinese tubes, and i swapped em out for JJs - huge difference, lower gain, loads more bass. so much nicer.

The voicing/EQ differences I knew about. Not so much differences in gain (strength of tube's output signal relative to input signal)... tha'z interesting. I figured all manufacturers' tubes of a given type would have a similar gain. Maybe not, eh.

That being the case, it would make sense that if one tube maker's product has higher gain than another's, then when you stuff an amp full of their tubes, the additional gain in one stage would overdrive the next stage earlier because each stage is cranking out a stronger signal.

euan · Post by **euan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:57 pm

Aye. Watford Valves here test a lot of their valves for gain. So if you want a low gain tube they will sell you ones with gains of like <200, >200 and >250. I got the DR250s for my TT and one of the cryo treated. You can hear a sweetness and a reduction in noise from it. Which is helpful with the increased gain.

Post by **dots** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 pm

god damn, you'd think orange would put in the best tubes for noise reduction for the prices they charge.

euan · Post by **euan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:49 pm

Nah the orange tubes are rebranded JJs.

The Harmas I dropped in are nonames that have been drive tested and the cryogenic treated to reduce noise further and make them sound better. It is a proven technology and I even ABed the cryo one with the non cryo.

aphasiac · Post by **aphasiac** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:40 am

filtercap wrote: The voicing/EQ differences I knew about. Not so much differences in gain (strength of tube's output signal relative to input signal)... tha'z interesting. I figured all manufacturers' tubes of a given type would have a similar gain. Maybe not, eh.

That being the case, it would make sense that if one tube maker's product has higher gain than another's, then when you stuff an amp full of their tubes, the additional gain in one stage would overdrive the next stage earlier because each stage is cranking out a stronger signal.

Ok maybe there arent huge gain differences with the same tubes - I think its more like certain tubes break into harmonic distortion easier than others.