Mustang - Great Fender, or Greatest Fender? (love thread)

Jagermeister · Post by **Jagermeister** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:47 am

I really have a hard time imagining how Mustangs could have been considered too low end at all, or how Fender could have priced them that way...

Constructionwise, compared to a strat:

-Thinner body (initially without contours)
-less routing
-one fewer pickups
-one fewer knobs
-less wood in the neck

...But then again, so did the Jag (aside from the body issue) and it was top of the line. And by the virtue of its bridge, a Duo Sonic seems much more low end, but then the Telecaster was similar in that regard... (Perhaps the MM losing the pickup and both switches as well is a bit more low end...)

Additionally the Mustang had:

-Chrome plates
-More switches
-(Arguably) more complex bridge/trem arrangement

...Again, as did the Jag. In the end, it's hard for me to see the exact aspects that made up the Fender heirarchy in those days...

In these days I think of it more in the way that Porsche had its lineup horizontal in the 80s: The 911, 944, and 928 all offering about the same kind of performance in fairly different packaging. But I still can't figure out why Fender initially called Mustangs "student" guitars, or Jags "premium" for that matter. By price, a Tele had to be far cheaper to build than a Mustang...

My biased opinion tells me that Jags are at the top because they ROCK more

Something to me just makes the Jag sound bigger and more nuanced than any Fender...

Post by **dots** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:04 am

mustangs are great. the more i think about it, i might end up converting my bronco project to a mustang project at a later date (TBD).

i have to say, though, that the strat is fender. innovation in body style, color, electronics, tone. i don't care for the arguments that there are too many; it's still a beautiful design, if a bit over played (in more ways than one).

but i still love me some 'stang and jag. . . mucho mucho gusto.

astro · Post by **astro** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:13 am

Jagermeister wrote:I really have a hard time imagining how Mustangs could have been considered too low end at all, or how Fender could have priced them that way...

I've wondered the same thing... the comparison with the construction of the tele in particular makes me wonder as well why this guitar was considered higher end. Maybe they all cost more or less the same to make, but for reasons of marketing they were presented as being of differing levels of quality, in order to not just be seen as either a student guitar company or a luxury guitar company exclusively.

And speaking of the label of "student guitar", why has the Mustang had so much trouble shedding this label amongst the majority of guitar players? I've met so many musicians who poo-poo the stang because of it's more humble "student" designation. And yet, Gibson's Les Paul Junior seems to have mostly shed its "student" designation, despite being less versatile, uglier, more expensive, and having the largest badge of shame of them all: a Gibson logo on the headstock.

Jagermeister · Post by **Jagermeister** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:30 am

The same people who were too stupid to figure out how to adjust the trem in a Mustang 40 years ago are now just too stubborn to. Racism is spread in the same way if you think about it, really. Especially if you payed twice as much for your guitar... I guess enough phlegmy, 70s honkies played Jr.s and Specials for them to be ok now, plus they say Les Paul on them. And as guitar pedantry tends to be passed from stubborn redneck to stubborn redneck, myths continue to be propogated.

...

Oddly the Mustang has always struck me as the guitar that Gibson players would be most attracted to: Fender attributes, but closer to Gibson scale and heavier sounding. Everyone complains about "uselessly" bright strat bridge pickups, the Mustang has nothing like that. Go figure. They're missing out.

Strats I like, but a Tele or Jag does twang or clarity better, a Mustang does Trem better... Just a very generic guitar to me.

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:44 am

I love Stratocasters, but it's one of those guitars that I think sounds better in other people's hands than mine.

I know I bond with Telecasters, Mustangs and Jaguars a lot more.

I liked my Jazzmaster but I was never in love with it.

Post by **Doog** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:03 am

My Strat just feels right to me- it's bright enough, but still has "body". My Jazzy always feels kinda like it's lacking some spanky top end, it's a little more honky sounding.. which is cool and all, but I just lurves me that Strat sound.

How generic

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:40 am

if mustangs/duos etc are still considered student models by old farts and dealers that's fine. how much do les paul jrs sell for? too much. you can still pick up vintage mustangs for not that much more than a reissue, and that suits me whatever people designate them.

could anyone contemplate buying, say, a good condition '63 strat? i doubt it.

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:42 am

stewart wrote:you can still pick up vintage mustangs for not that much more than a reissue

Not really unfortunately. The reissues can be got for Â£499 online, and around Â£600 in stores.

Vintage Mustangs start at around Â£1,000 and can be extremely overpriced, BobArsecake and I were in Denmark St (I know) yesterday afternoon and there were a couple of 60s Dakota Red Mustangs (in fairly scrappy condition) for Â£1,500+. One of them even had a massive gouge out of the front. On ebay they still command a great deal, you got an Excellent deal on Hurb's Duo Sonic II, which would have normally gone for Â£800 in non trying times.

Best option is to buy vintage in America or from America on ebay.

Ninja Mike 808 · Post by **Ninja Mike 808** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:46 am

That's like twice as much... Isn't a RI stand on MF only $600 or $700? WTF?!?!?!

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:48 am

We pay pound for dollar on American musical goods generally (or more). We get stiffed on Fenders, you guys get stiffed on Marshalls and Oranges.

Ninja Mike 808 · Post by **Ninja Mike 808** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:49 am

Double stiffed. Guitar Center doesn't even sell Orange.

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:50 am

Guitar Centre is not the world. House of Guitars near Rob has tons of Orange stuff - it's out there.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:14 pm

Mike wrote:
stewart wrote:you can still pick up vintage mustangs for not that much more than a reissue
Not really unfortunately. The reissues can be got for Â£499 online, and around Â£600 in stores.

Vintage Mustangs start at around Â£1,000 and can be extremely overpriced, BobArsecake and I were in Denmark St (I know) yesterday afternoon and there were a couple of 60s Dakota Red Mustangs (in fairly scrappy condition) for Â£1,500+. One of them even had a massive gouge out of the front. On ebay they still command a great deal, you got an Excellent deal on Hurb's Duo Sonic II, which would have normally gone for Â£800 in non trying times.

Best option is to buy vintage in America or from America on ebay.

yeah, i agree with you in terms of dealer prices- and denmark street shops are generally rip-off merchants. my musicmaster came from a shop there and if you saw that thread i posted a while ago you can see how fucked it was. but if you can find one in a private sale (or even get lucky on ebay like i have more than once) you can still get them fairly reasonably. when i first started keeping tabs on vintage mustangs and jaguars about 3 or 4 years ago they weren't that expensive, jaguars especially seem to have rocketed since then. i've resigned myself to never owning one unless i get drunk one night and blow some of my savings. i think the old 'two junk guitars in cases to the states, two lovely guitars back to the uk' plan is the way to go. even if you had to sell one to cover the flights it could still work out nicely.

the thing that puts me off buying from the states over the internet is the potential bum-raping on tax, postage and customs duty. mind you, it'd probably still work out cheaper than buying here.

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:26 pm

I feel weird about buying a guitar I've never played aswell, you could end up with a lemon which would be upsetting for the best part of a grand.

There were some glorious '65 Jaguars we saw as well. Some of them were incredibly clean.

astro · Post by **astro** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:46 pm

Mike wrote:
stewart wrote:you can still pick up vintage mustangs for not that much more than a reissue
Not really unfortunately. The reissues can be got for Â£499 online, and around Â£600 in stores.

Vintage Mustangs start at around Â£1,000 and can be extremely overpriced, BobArsecake and I were in Denmark St (I know) yesterday afternoon and there were a couple of 60s Dakota Red Mustangs (in fairly scrappy condition) for Â£1,500+. One of them even had a massive gouge out of the front. On ebay they still command a great deal, you got an Excellent deal on Hurb's Duo Sonic II, which would have normally gone for Â£800 in non trying times.

Best option is to buy vintage in America or from America on ebay.

The 70's fenders are still cheap, but their prices are starting to rise. I got my '76 stang for $750 on Fleabay last winter. It wasn't mint, but it's in pretty good shape.

I know a lot of people think that all Fenders from the 70's are tainted goods due to some curse from the high priests of CBS, but all the Fenders from that era that I've either owned or played have been solid instruments. Thankfully this belief has kept prices low on Fenders of this vintage, but this won't last long as the older stuff continues to spiral upwards in price and out of reach of more and more people.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:46 pm

Mike wrote:I feel weird about buying a guitar I've never played aswell, you could end up with a lemon which would be upsetting for the best part of a grand.

There were some glorious '65 Jaguars we saw as well. Some of them were incredibly clean.

christ, i've just bought two guitars and now you've got me scheming ways i can get my hands on a jag...

must.... not.... spend........ more...........

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:49 pm

astro wrote:
Mike wrote:
stewart wrote:you can still pick up vintage mustangs for not that much more than a reissue
Not really unfortunately. The reissues can be got for Â£499 online, and around Â£600 in stores.

Vintage Mustangs start at around Â£1,000 and can be extremely overpriced, BobArsecake and I were in Denmark St (I know) yesterday afternoon and there were a couple of 60s Dakota Red Mustangs (in fairly scrappy condition) for Â£1,500+. One of them even had a massive gouge out of the front. On ebay they still command a great deal, you got an Excellent deal on Hurb's Duo Sonic II, which would have normally gone for Â£800 in non trying times.

Best option is to buy vintage in America or from America on ebay.
The 70's fenders are still cheap, but their prices are starting to rise. I got my '76 stang for $750 on Fleabay last winter. It wasn't mint, but it's in pretty good shape.

I know a lot of people think that all Fenders from the 70's are tainted goods due to some curse from the high priests of CBS, but all the Fenders from that era that I've either owned or played have been solid instruments. Thankfully this belief has kept prices low on Fenders of this vintage, but this won't last long as the older stuff continues to spiral upwards in price and out of reach of more and more people.

I've played and seen both sides of the CBS debate. There were undoubtedly some terrible guitars made in that era, but also some lovely ones.

DGNR8 · Post by **DGNR8** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:56 pm

Part of the aesthetic of the Mustang that drew me was the trem plate. Make it HH, use a TOM, but don't lose that plate. It's the hood ornament.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:36 pm

astro wrote:
Mike wrote:
stewart wrote:you can still pick up vintage mustangs for not that much more than a reissue
Not really unfortunately. The reissues can be got for Â£499 online, and around Â£600 in stores.

Vintage Mustangs start at around Â£1,000 and can be extremely overpriced, BobArsecake and I were in Denmark St (I know) yesterday afternoon and there were a couple of 60s Dakota Red Mustangs (in fairly scrappy condition) for Â£1,500+. One of them even had a massive gouge out of the front. On ebay they still command a great deal, you got an Excellent deal on Hurb's Duo Sonic II, which would have normally gone for Â£800 in non trying times.

Best option is to buy vintage in America or from America on ebay.
The 70's fenders are still cheap, but their prices are starting to rise. I got my '76 stang for $750 on Fleabay last winter. It wasn't mint, but it's in pretty good shape.

I know a lot of people think that all Fenders from the 70's are tainted goods due to some curse from the high priests of CBS, but all the Fenders from that era that I've either owned or played have been solid instruments. Thankfully this belief has kept prices low on Fenders of this vintage, but this won't last long as the older stuff continues to spiral upwards in price and out of reach of more and more people.

we've had this conversation before- our 70s mustangs are almost identical in spec and condition. but what you paid in dollars i paid in pounds... which means mine cost twice as much! mind you, costs of living in canada could be ridiculous, i dunno.

and i've also played a few 70s fenders and always found them fine. i picked up the mustang last night for the first time after getting the duo-sonic on friday, and found it reassuringly chunky. i like them all!!!

Fran · Post by **Fran** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:59 pm

Jagermeister wrote:I guess enough phlegmy, 70s honkies played Jr.s and Specials for them to be ok now, plus they say Les Paul on them.

Its a bit more than that lol. To be honest i dont think the Mustang is in the same league as a Junior, although i like both. The Mustang does feel like a Student guitar where as the Junior does'nt.
A good Junior has tone that is hard to rival, any old schoolers will agree with that. The simplicity and killer tone make it a no brainer guitar, its hard to sound crap on one. When they made the originals they only cut back on some hardware, electronics and the cap, they were still constructed of the finest honduras mahogany. The missing neck pup meant a longer neck joint, the lack of routing also meant more wood. To top it off the wrapover bridge is viewed by some as the best bridge ever. Thats why top companies like PRS and Patrick Eggle use them, its certainly not to save a few dollars on a Â£2,000 guitar.
In fairness the Junior would have been taken more seriously earlier on but they were associated with limited punk players like Johnny Thunders and Mick Jones. Now BJ Armstrong has taken the model on he has done as much damage as he has good for the models reputation.

All the Vintage Vibe is partly crap as well, like now, some were good and some were dreadfull. Its become a mojo thing, almost an indication of status as a player.. which is wrong. Okay, i own vintage but i do collect guitars and they are specific guitars i've dreamed of for nearly 20 years.
I find myself playing that cheap Squier Stagemaster more than my other guitars.