Volume drop when going out of phase...

endsjustifymeans · Post by **endsjustifymeans** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:53 pm

Is there a good way to compensate for the volume drop when you knock your pups out of phase?

I want that hollow tinny sound... but i want it LOUD!

blacktaxi · Post by **blacktaxi** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:54 pm

try to change vertical position (height) of one of the pickups, this should change the way how lower frequencies are cancelled, and hopefully add some, making overall signal louder.

euan · Post by **euan** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:00 pm

Booster

Post by **Mike** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:01 pm

Unfortunately not.

When combining pickups in any parallel configuration, they will always be quieter than the individual pickups.

And here is why:

Rtotal = R1 x R2 / (R1 + R2)

If we have a 7k neck and a 9k bridge pickup on their own they are 7k and 9k respectively. Together they are 7 x 9 / 7 + 9 = 63/16 = 3.93K

Holy crap, it's just over half the neck value!

Series resistors add to a whopping 16K in this case which equals large fat tones.

kim · Post by **kim** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:10 pm

have a trained monkey (or groupie) sit by your amp to turn up the volume when needed

endsjustifymeans · Post by **endsjustifymeans** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:23 pm

heavium wrote:have a trained monkey (or groupie) sit by your amp to turn up the volume when needed

We have a winner! lol.

blacktaxi · Post by **blacktaxi** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:49 pm

oh, use a compressor!

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:48 pm

Mike wrote:Unfortunately not.

When combining pickups in any parallel configuration, they will always be quieter than the individual pickups.

And here is why:

Rtotal = R1 x R2 / (R1 + R2)

If we have a 7k neck and a 9k bridge pickup on their own they are 7k and 9k respectively. Together they are 7 x 9 / 7 + 9 = 63/16 = 3.93K

Holy crap, it's just over half the neck value!

Series resistors add to a whopping 16K in this case which equals large fat tones.

I think what Mike is trying to say here, which would also be my suggestion, is WIRE THE MOTHERFUCKER IN SERIES INSTEAD OF PARALLEL.

Series/Parallel switching should be standard on every guitar. Ever.

Post by **Mike** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Series out of phase will always be quieter though still, since you are removing information/energy from the signal.

My Telecaster has series, parallel and a phase switch, the series out of phase sound is quacky and louder than the parallel out of phase sound, but still quieter as it's so thin.

Sublimedo · Post by **Sublimedo** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:34 pm

yep, its just an intrinsic quality of being out of phase. JUST BOOST IT.

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:18 pm

Mike wrote:Series out of phase will always be quieter though still, since you are removing information/energy from the signal.

My Telecaster has series, parallel and a phase switch, the series out of phase sound is quacky and louder than the parallel out of phase sound, but still quieter as it's so thin.

It'll be quieter, but louder than it is in parallel, and I bet it wouldn't be too far off from the volume of the pickups in parallel normally. Though that last part is just a guess, I've never liked out of phase.

endsjustifymeans · Post by **endsjustifymeans** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:40 pm

PenPen wrote:
Mike wrote:Series out of phase will always be quieter though still, since you are removing information/energy from the signal.

My Telecaster has series, parallel and a phase switch, the series out of phase sound is quacky and louder than the parallel out of phase sound, but still quieter as it's so thin.
It'll be quieter, but louder than it is in parallel, and I bet it wouldn't be too far off from the volume of the pickups in parallel normally. Though that last part is just a guess, I've never liked out of phase.

Out of phase with a harmonic perculator = win

haz teh albiniz!

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:10 pm

i think jaguar neck with the bass cut on sounds more albiniz through the HP.

endsjustifymeans · Post by **endsjustifymeans** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:22 pm

my neck pickup is a jag pickup.

SD SJAG-3, it's a sweet pickup. Wiring it to have a bass cut would be beyond my skillz.

It was quite the effort just coil splitting the hot rails, installing the kill switch and wiring the jag pup for phase reversal.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:24 pm

i hear dwarfcraft makes a good boost pedal. just invest in one of those.

Sloan · Post by **Sloan** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:47 pm

Having two signals out of phase is usually quieter anyway since frequencies are being canceled.

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:00 am

Sloan wrote:Having two signals out of phase is usually quieter anyway since frequencies are being canceled.

blacktaxi · Post by **blacktaxi** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:16 am

Mike wrote:Unfortunately not.

When combining pickups in any parallel configuration, they will always be quieter than the individual pickups.

And here is why:

Rtotal = R1 x R2 / (R1 + R2)

If we have a 7k neck and a 9k bridge pickup on their own they are 7k and 9k respectively. Together they are 7 x 9 / 7 + 9 = 63/16 = 3.93K

Holy crap, it's just over half the neck value!

Series resistors add to a whopping 16K in this case which equals large fat tones.

but then how come parallel in phase sounds pretty much as loud as just one pickup?

Post by **Mike** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:58 am

blacktaxi wrote:
Mike wrote:Unfortunately not.

When combining pickups in any parallel configuration, they will always be quieter than the individual pickups.

And here is why:

Rtotal = R1 x R2 / (R1 + R2)

If we have a 7k neck and a 9k bridge pickup on their own they are 7k and 9k respectively. Together they are 7 x 9 / 7 + 9 = 63/16 = 3.93K

Holy crap, it's just over half the neck value!

Series resistors add to a whopping 16K in this case which equals large fat tones.
but then how come parallel in phase sounds pretty much as loud as just one pickup?

Because your ear behaves logarithmically and the difference between the volume is not a 50% relation.

btw - endsjustifymeans, the bass cut on the Jaguar is incredibly simple. it's just a DPDT switch switch switches the signal between going through a small cap to the volume knob or just going straight there. It is arbitrary.

endsjustifymeans · Post by **endsjustifymeans** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:23 pm

Mike wrote:
blacktaxi wrote:
Mike wrote:Unfortunately not.

When combining pickups in any parallel configuration, they will always be quieter than the individual pickups.

And here is why:

Rtotal = R1 x R2 / (R1 + R2)

If we have a 7k neck and a 9k bridge pickup on their own they are 7k and 9k respectively. Together they are 7 x 9 / 7 + 9 = 63/16 = 3.93K

Holy crap, it's just over half the neck value!

Series resistors add to a whopping 16K in this case which equals large fat tones.
but then how come parallel in phase sounds pretty much as loud as just one pickup?
Because your ear behaves logarithmically and the difference between the volume is not a 50% relation.

btw - endsjustifymeans, the bass cut on the Jaguar is incredibly simple. it's just a DPDT switch switch switches the signal between going through a small cap to the volume knob or just going straight there. It is arbitrary.

hrmm... maybe I'll replace my kill switch with a bass cut to try it out. I don't think I've used the kill once since I installed it.