Baritone Guitars?

Freddy V-C · Post by **Freddy V-C** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:20 pm

The drummer from my current band and I are starting up a two-piece side project. The main influences are Death From Above 1979, Lightning Bolt, That Fucking Tank and Hella (our favourite two-piece bands, basically). At the moment we're still deciding whether it should be drums and bass or drums and guitar, so tomorrow we're having a practice where we experiment with both. One thing I am considering, though, is playing a baritone guitar in order to get the best of both worlds. Unfortunately I don't have the funds to buy a dedicated baritone guitar, but I do have a guitar which rarely gets used. So my question is, how easy will it be to buy some super-thick strings for my Telecaster and tune it B to B? It's currently set up for 9s in standard tuning, so how much dicking about (if any) is there likely to be with the truss rod and suchlike?

Ankhanu · Post by **Ankhanu** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:31 pm

It's gonna be super flubby. Standard guitar scale lengths don't really work with baritone tuning; the strings have too little tension to play well. It's possible, but it won't sound good and won't intonate. Your Stat is probably a 25.5" scale length? Baritones tend to be around the 27-29" scale length (or 30" for some of the 6 string basses tuned E-e), which maintains a usable tension on the heavier strings to keep the instrument playable.

benecol · Post by **benecol** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:09 pm

Aen to thread to utterly disagree with the above...

Much as I favour the baritone (I like the sale length as much as anything else, but I'm a confirmed longshanks...) a hefty tweak on your tele's truss rod, a set of bionic strings, and you're away.

Freddy V-C · Post by **Freddy V-C** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:31 pm

Thanks for the encouragement, Benecol. I just tried tuning it B to B with the current strings (Ernie Ball Skinny Top, Heavy Bottoms) and it sounds actually okay, intonation not too bad. So I think with some thick strings and minor truss-rod adjustment I'll be away.

This new band sounds like Gong, apparently. At least according to a teacher at our school who was in the hall when we had a drum and bass jam today. Having now listened to Gong I can't decide whether to take it as a compliment or not...

kim · Post by **kim** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:32 pm

this is just my opinion and if you're really set on baritone sounds and low tunings then ignore this comment but look at
coachwhips, pink and brown, athletic automaton, aids wolf, the gories, comanechi, SPELLING BEE (!!

)
for instance, sometimes there's a keyboard involved, or two guitars, but it's fine to have a two piece band with just a drummer and guitarist, sometimes there's effects to change the structures (athletic automaton, and that other band whose name i forgot but do something similar..haha) or have dual guitars but i don't think you have to worry about it not sounding 'full' enough. you don't always need bass in there i think. but that's just my view, also it's weird seeing death from above right next to lightning bolt, it's both a drummer and bassist but soooo different in music. even for more 'poppy' lightning bolt.

Freddy V-C · Post by **Freddy V-C** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:34 pm

kim wrote:also it's weird seeing death from above right next to lightning bolt, it's both a drummer and bassist but soooo different in music. even for more 'poppy' lightning bolt.

Yeah, we don't see that many musical similarities really. They're just two-piece bands we both like a lot.

I have listened to AIDSwolf out of the bands you mentioned, can't say I was a massive fan but I might give them another go. Another band I guess is influencing us a bit is Pre, I hadn't thought of them when I made my first post (I know they aren't a two-piece though).

kim · Post by **kim** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:37 pm

yeah they have bass guitar in there with PRE and it's quite essential in their sound, comanechi is the singer's other band though and it's just a singing drummer and a guitarist but he splits his sound to a bass amp too.

by the way, i think from the mentioned you mentioned if you don't know them you might really dig athletic automaton, it's not as oddball as aids wolf has some catchy twists in it and it's also just a guitarist and drummer.

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

live
[youtube][/youtube]

aen · Post by **aen** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:38 pm

Ankhanu wrote:It's gonna be super flubby. .

No it's not. Get GHS 70-11s. Works perfectly if you know how to set up a guitar. Even Robert Original, Professional Luthier and Ultimate Guitar Snob knows this.

Freddy V-C · Post by **Freddy V-C** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:48 pm

I'm liking Into Africa, not too sure about that other one.

I'll get hold of the thickest strings I can from one of the shops in Halifax. I'll probably come back to this thread with more questions, I've never had to adjust a trussrod before... :S

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:07 pm

blues guys used to use the top string of their tele's for bass.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:04 am

a few years back I used to own a danelectro baritone, albeit tuned to EADGBE an octave down from guitar. The strings were lighter than a bass but so close together that it was hard to play it either like a guitar or like a bass....also it hit the low notes but did not have that heavy driving sound like DFA or Big Business or any other bass-only band. Part of me wishes I threw lighter strings on it and tuned it to B but at the time there was another guitarist in the band and I didn't want songwriting to get too confusing.

Ankhanu · Post by **Ankhanu** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:41 am

benecol wrote:Aen to thread to utterly disagree with the above...

Much as I favour the baritone (I like the sale length as much as anything else, but I'm a confirmed longshanks...) a hefty tweak on your tele's truss rod, a set of bionic strings, and you're away.

aen wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:It's gonna be super flubby. .
No it's not. Get GHS 70-11s. Works perfectly if you know how to set up a guitar. Even Robert Original, Professional Luthier and Ultimate Guitar Snob knows this.

From my experience (though not extensive, yeah, I know how to set up a guitar, though I'm no professional) tuning that low on a standard scale results in fairly loose strings and weird intonation. I've also found that the loss of tension accentuates the amplitude of the frequency swing right after picking (think of how tuning goes sharp immediately after picking while tuning), which can make for some super bad sounding chords if you don't play pretty lightly (though some pretty awesome experimental stuff). I've found you also need a fairly light touch on the fretboard, as it's easier to fret too hard and alter pitch as well.

For the truss rod tweak, are we talking about something special here (over or under bending), or setting it up with the same curvature that you would want with standard tunings (with slightly higher string clearance to avoid buzz)?

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:37 am

Have you ever used strings as heavy as 11-70 tuning to B? I used to tune my artcore to C standard with regular 13s and that worked out perfectly fine.
It sounds like you tried to downtune using 11s or something.

We need to get Fran in here too. I think he does drop A on a shortscale in Master Charger.

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:56 am

I've done B-B with a set of 11-52s on a standard guitar - worked fine. If you think about it, 11-52s tuned B-B are at the same tension as a set of 9s in standard. I think the main thing is to get a set with a wound 3rd string, or it'll sound a bit wonky.

There's a formula on the D'addario site that lets you calculate string tension at a given pitch and scale length. That can help figure out what gauges you need.

Jahsoul · Post by **Jahsoul** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:36 am

Good bands were discussed here today.

Ankhanu · Post by **Ankhanu** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:54 pm

Reece wrote:Have you ever used strings as heavy as 11-70 tuning to B? I used to tune my artcore to C standard with regular 13s and that worked out perfectly fine.
It sounds like you tried to downtune using 11s or something.

We need to get Fran in here too. I think he does drop A on a shortscale in Master Charger.

Yeah, 11s and acoustics are about has heavy as I've tried. I haven't gone out and bought materials specifically to downtune, just downtuned and setup using existing materials.

aen · Post by **aen** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:11 pm

I've actually only needed to adjust one truss rod out of probably six guitars I've taken from standard down to b. I did however have a kagmaster that would not intonate in any tuning, much less B. I had a Mexican standard tele that I couldn't get quite intonated.

But doubters: think about this. No one gets in a twist over a 7 string guitar with a low b. A 6 string standard scale baritone is pretty much he same thing mnus a high string. Saying it doesn't work is just erroneous.

mickie08 · Post by **mickie08** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:21 pm

yeah, if you try to drop that low with regular strings it may sound flabby depending on the particualr guitar's setup, but with the heavy strings and a good setup it is no problem.

Freddy V-C · Post by **Freddy V-C** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:13 pm

I tried tuning B to B at our 'jam' (*shudder*) today. It sounded pretty okay and the intonation was fine, that's using 9s by the way. So I'm gonna buy some thicker strings next time I'm in town and hopefully it should sound perfect.

thickarms · Post by **thickarms** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:37 pm

Freddy V-C wrote: I have listened to AIDSwolf out of the bands you mentioned, can't say I was a massive fan but I might give them another go. Another band I guess is influencing us a bit is Pre, I hadn't thought of them when I made my first post (I know they aren't a two-piece though).

Pre have two bassists. i need to hear more about this Frederick, i'm excited