Hi, I'm new.. Questions about Jaguars.

[andershp]

Hi

I have been looking at a Fender Jaguar American Vintage '62 for a quite a while, but I don't know that much about these shortscale guitars. I currently own a Stratocaster Highway 1, which is my first electric guitars, but I fell in love with the Jaguar because of it's sound, look and possibilities.

I've just discovered that it is one of these shortscale guitars, so I would appreciate if anyone would explain me how it influences the playing and which pros and cons it involves?

I have read a bit about those problems with the bridge and the strings jumping off, but how big a problem is this?

I have read that some people experience problems with the floating tremolo, but how are these in comparison with the Stratocaster and are they hampering for the guitar and the playing?

Thanks

By the way my name is Anders and I'm from Denmark

[Pens]

Well, the shortscale is mostly a feel sort of issue. I find compared to a Strat its a darker sound, where the Strat has more of twang to it. It feels a bit more relaxed, which the first thing you need to do is put on a minimum of 11s on a shortscale, which mitigates some of the issues with the bridge.

Past that, I'm not a fan of the bridge, some people just pick up a Mustang bridge and put that in, as they are directly interchangeable. Others, like myself, take a metal file and file deeper grooves into the stock bridge to get the strings to stay in place.

Please stick around, and post picks if you do decide to purchase that AV!

[Ankhanu]

Honestly, I find very little difference in playability between short and standard scales… mind you, I'm also primarily a bassist, and also play mandolin and ukulele. The difference between a 25 and 24" scale is really pretty minor to my fingers.

Like Pens said, a set of .11s will cure most problems with the bridge. Once I changed the strings on my MIJ '66 Classic from the .09s it came with to .11s I've had no problems whatsoever with the bridge. Before then I had issues with strings popping out of the grooves, rattling, etc. The .11s also feel better with the shorter scale length. The "problem" with the bridge is that it offers more flexibility than many others… which means that it takes a little more effort to set up properly, as there are more options in how you do it… but once set up, it's great (IMO).

I love the floating tremolo system. I find it FAR better than the standard Strat trem or something like a Floyd Rose. It doesn't offer as wide a dive range as those trems (without some modification to the arm), but it works very well for shimmering vibrato and the like. It really depends on how you want to use it as to whether or not you'll like it.
I do find that tuning stability with the floating term is MUCH greater than other trems I've used; especially when you've gone up to .11 or higher gauges.

Some find the break angle from the bridge to tail piece is too shallow, resulting in some harmonic resonance in the length of string behind the bridge… this is valid, but those same harmonics can be quite interesting, and offers up some sonic options not available with other setups. Using something like a buzzstop (a mod that bolts onto the trem plate to increase the break angle) will help get rid of those issues if you find it a problem.

Pens mentioned that they have a darker sound… personally, my Jag is my brightest guitar. I have an Aerodyne Telecaster and a Godin Exit 22 (Strat like) and both are much darker than the Jag. I find it tends to have a fair bit of sparkle to it; though with the rhythm circuit, it does get a bit darker.

My Jag is definitely my favorite guitar right now; once you play with it, you'll come to your own conclusions. The switching is a little confusing at first if you have no idea what it does, but once you have an idea, it's not tough at all.

[laterallateral]

Hey Anders.
Short and sweet answers to your questions (others might chime in with more in depth explanations):

Scale lenght
In my experience, it really only affects how you approach the instrument physically.
Smaller players (such as myself) have reported feeling less encumbered when playing shortscale necks.
Some people will argue that the shorter scale has an effect on tonality and dynamics, on account of shorter strings vibrating at higher frequencies and though that is theoretically correct, this difference in my experience, has been mostly dismissable.

Strings popping out of saddles
Tends to happen to Jag/JM players that have aggressive picking styles. This problem is attributed to this saddle design, which are shallowly threaded, in order to allow players to customize their string spacing. This can easily be solutioned by deepening the grooves in the saddles to taste. More radical approaches involve swapping out the bridge for TOM, Mustang and "Intended for Jaguar/JM" designs. There is also an aftermarket part called a "buzz stop" which can be fitted to the tremolo unit, that increases the string tension over the bridge, which people have found useful in resolving pop-out issues.

Regarding the tremolo
This is really a question of taste but most of the complaints I've come across regarding that system can largely be attributed to two things:
1. faulty setup and 2. unreasonable expectations. When properly setup, Jaguar/JM tremolos, in my opinion, are probably the best compromise between tuning stability and functionality. Don't expect to be able to do Van Halen divebombs but this sytem will allow you to bend quite a bit more extensively than with a Bigsby or a Maestro... Some people like to fault the shallow break angle and long string length between the bridge and the tailpiece as the source of alot of buzzing and of unwanted sympathetic resonance. This is a matter of personal preference. The buzz stop will supress this to an extent but a great deal of people that play these guitars, do so specifically because of these properties. Alot of great music has been written because of this trem unit. You either like that about it or you don't.

You'll want to note that there is a Jaguar model which was designed to address these "issues". The guitar comes stock with a TOM style bridge and the trem has been placed closer to the bridge in order to increase the string's break angle. These are the Classic Player series. As a Classic Player player, I can tell you that though the issue of string pop-out has been fully addressed by this design, matters regarding sympathetic resonance are still very much in order.

Hope this helps.
Welcome to the team!

[Pens]

I don't know, my Jag is way darker than both my Hagstrom with all Strat hardware and scale, and my SuperSonic.

There is some science to the resonance of the shorter string length being accentuated at certain frequencies compared to the longer lengths. It's science, dude, it's been measured with scopes.

The Jag in particular is a heavier guitar than my others, but with less tension at the same tuning it comes out as darker. I even took it to an ALBQ and couldn't get anything but mud out of a Big Muff pedal, my Jag is just a dark guitar.

[Fran]

I dont think anyone mentioned sustain, the Jaguar does'nt have the natural sustain a Strat has due to the bridge and tremolo. Also on a Strat the strings sit close to the body and you get more of a percussive sound.
The bridge and stock bridge pickup are the biggest complaints on CIJ 62 models, both easy to fix/replace and something Jag players have compromised with for years because of the other great things about the design.
The tremolo is one of the best imo as long as you are aware of its limitations as someone mentioned.
Personally the short scale does'nt bother me, but players with larger hands may find it 'cramped' especially playing extended chords (the reason classical guitars have wide fretboards).

Its also worth checking out the CP Jaguars because they have addressed a few issues like the bridge for instance and the stock pickups are great. As always, if you can try a few out.

[AkK]

Somebody (expert) should write something like "Shortscale for dummies".

[aen]

In my opinion the CP Jags are the best buy. They look great, they sound great, the trek and bridge work flawlessly, even under considerable duress RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. So to speak. I played alllll the jags recently, and the only real drawback on the CP is the weight and the colors (candy apple red For The Lose) if you even consider that. I'm actually feeling kind of stupid for buying an AV, but it came with a mustang bridge and I had a spare buzzstop, and apparently, too much money.

[blacktaxi]

Cool thread.

Now not trying to derail or anything, but on topic of comparison of different guitars... Would be awesome if somebody gave rough sound difference description between 1) Mustang and Jag and 2) Strat and Jazzmaster.

[aen]

I think that would be cool, too, but it wouldn't ring true for most readers, because these things are SO subjective. And I hate to be that guy but, after a certain point, tone is inthe fingers.

[andershp]

In my opinion the CP Jags are the best buy. They look great, they sound great, the trek and bridge work flawlessly, even under considerable duress RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. So to speak. I played alllll the jags recently, and the only real drawback on the CP is the weight and the colors (candy apple red For The Lose) if you even consider that. I'm actually feeling kind of stupid for buying an AV, but it came with a mustang bridge and I had a spare buzzstop, and apparently, too much money.

I have tried both the CP and the AV, but it's been a while since I've tried the AV, so i can't really remember the differences besides from what i read.
I thought that the American ones were (a lot) better in quality than the Mexican ones, since that is what I have experienced with Strats, but of cause it would be good if they fixed the problem with bridge.

But isn't there a difference in quality according to the price?

Now not trying to derail or anything, but on topic of comparison of different guitars... Would be awesome if somebody gave rough sound difference description between 1) Mustang and Jag and 2) Strat and Jazzmaster.

Yes, it would

[Pens]

Now not trying to derail or anything, but on topic of comparison of different guitars... Would be awesome if somebody gave rough sound difference description between 1) Mustang and Jag and 2) Strat and Jazzmaster.

Yes, it would

As noted in this thread, the problem is that even amongst Jaguars, they can vary greatly. My Jag is the darkest guitar I own, while other's noted that they are brighter than Strats. Add to that the differences in where they were made, wood differences (I have a Japanese alder Jag) and you end up with a vast difference even amongst them.

If I were going to get a Jaguar right now, and they made them all in lefty, I'd get a Classic Player Jaguar.

[aen]

In my opinion the CP Jags are the best buy. They look great, they sound great, the trek and bridge work flawlessly, even under considerable duress RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. So to speak. I played alllll the jags recently, and the only real drawback on the CP is the weight and the colors (candy apple red For The Lose) if you even consider that. I'm actually feeling kind of stupid for buying an AV, but it came with a mustang bridge and I had a spare buzzstop, and apparently, too much money.

I have tried both the CP and the AV, but it's been a while since I've tried the AV, so i can't really remember the differences besides from what i read.
I thought that the American ones were (a lot) better in quality than the Mexican ones, since that is what I have experienced with Strats, but of cause it would be good if they fixed the problem with bridge.

But isn't there a difference in quality according to the price?

No. The difference in price is due to many factors, but quality is not one of them in this situation. Sure, a standard strat is going to suck compared to an AV 54 strat or whatever. But a 50s classic strat is going to rule, provided you're not getting uppity about nitro finish and tweed cases and are cncerned mostly with playing the guitar. Like I mentioned earlier, the only thing the AV has over the CP is weight, and yeah, nitro finish.

[blacktaxi]

I think that would be cool, too, but it wouldn't ring true for most readers, because these things are SO subjective. And I hate to be that guy but, after a certain point, tone is inthe fingers.

I agree.

Also, I like what Fran said about comparing Jag and Strat, sounds valid.

What comes from my experience (i'm comparing *ACOUSTIC* sound of guitars, because they have different pickups and comparing them plugged would make little sense in this thread):
1) 66 RI Mustang - really bright attack, but then it gets dark as the notes fade. This makes it sound "plunky". Sustain isn't long.
2) EC Strat (maple neck) - very bright, long sustain, not plunky at all. Compared to the mustang, sounds great even with not fresh strings.
3) Toronado GT - very bright, long sustain, little less pronounced attack than in my strat.
4) MIM Strat (rosewood, ash body) - bright, medium/long sustain, pronounced attack. not plunky.
5) Yamaha Pacifica 312 (not mine, but played it a lot) - easily comparable with MIM Strat, makes sense because both guitars are very close in construction.

[Fran]

I think that would be cool, too, but it wouldn't ring true for most readers, because these things are SO subjective. And I hate to be that guy but, after a certain point, tone is inthe fingers.

THIS is why i love aen.
Great idea in theory but hard to convey.
You could dedicate a 50 page thread to Strats alone. Each year brings a difference, with vintage stuff wood and magnets age at varying rates, some were made with more love than others. Same goes for reissues to a degree, we've all owned a 'lemon' and we've all owned a 'good 'un'. A good Jag will beat a bad Strat and a good Mustang will beat a bad Tele, but nothing will ever beat a BC Rich. NEVER FORGET THAT. Lol, jus kidding

If someone where to start a thread on this with people subjecting entries based on their experience i would happily oblige.

[Ankhanu]

http://myspace.com/ankhanu
Only thing there is a couple little samples recorded with my MIJ '66 Classic Jaguar through my '72 Twin Reverb, dirty tracks have a Fulltone DP-1. They were recorded to ask for effects advice on the board here. You can hear how bright my Jag is.

Perhaps I'll have to record my Tele and Exit 22 for comparison.

[andershp]

No. The difference in price is due to many factors, but quality is not one of them in this situation. Sure, a standard strat is going to suck compared to an AV 54 strat or whatever. But a 50s classic strat is going to rule, provided you're not getting uppity about nitro finish and tweed cases and are cncerned mostly with playing the guitar. Like I mentioned earlier, the only thing the AV has over the CP is weight, and yeah, nitro finish.

Okay, but I thought that there is a bigger difference in quality between American and Mexican fenders. For example an American Standard Stratocaster compared to a Mexican Stratocaster?

That's why I thought that the reason to pay $2300 instead of $1100 was because of the quality and of course the nitro finish, case etc..

Is it the exact same pickups and hardware too ?

[taylornutt]

No. The difference in price is due to many factors, but quality is not one of them in this situation. Sure, a standard strat is going to suck compared to an AV 54 strat or whatever. But a 50s classic strat is going to rule, provided you're not getting uppity about nitro finish and tweed cases and are cncerned mostly with playing the guitar. Like I mentioned earlier, the only thing the AV has over the CP is weight, and yeah, nitro finish.

Okay, but I thought that there is a bigger difference in quality between American and Mexican fenders. For example an American Standard Stratocaster compared to a Mexican Stratocaster?

That's why I thought that the reason to pay $2300 instead of $1100 was because of the quality and of course the nitro finish, case etc..

Is it the exact same pickups and hardware too ?

CP has hotter pickups and the tremolo is moved closer to the bridge for more sustain. They also replaced the stock bridge with a tunomatic bridge. Some "purists" think this ruins the character of the guitar, but they really were trying to address many of the issues people have had over the years with regular jaguars. This doesn't make the CP Jags better, just more modern. I was totally planning to get a CP Jag but found an AVRI Jag for an unbelievable deal so I took a chance on the AVRI. I ended up liking the AVRI better. I like the feel of the Nitro finish over poly and I liked the stock pickups and features. My Jag bridge had been upgraded to a Mustang Bridge before I bought it, which is a common mod and why you see the tunomatic on the CP jags. I think they are both quality guitars, but if you prefer the feel and sound of a vintage guitar, you should go AVRI. If you want the more modern features and hotter Pickups, go CP. CP jags are definitely more cost effective and you can tweek the pickups if you prefer a vintage sound pretty easily. Japanese Jags are also a great option if you want the classic Jag specs but more reasonable priced though many players end up changing out the pickups in them.

Here is Mike with his CP Jag and his vintage Jag.

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[Josh]

I don't know, my Jag is way darker than both my Hagstrom with all Strat hardware and scale, and my SuperSonic.

There is some science to the resonance of the shorter string length being accentuated at certain frequencies compared to the longer lengths. It's science, dude, it's been measured with scopes.

The Jag in particular is a heavier guitar than my others, but with less tension at the same tuning it comes out as darker. I even took it to an ALBQ and couldn't get anything but mud out of a Big Muff pedal, my Jag is just a dark guitar.

pickups or pots perhaps?

my mim jag is really fucking bright, and gets really really good tones out of a big muff pedal.
it can get muddy and dark, or creamy and bright using the "strangle switch".

[taylornutt]

I don't know, my Jag is way darker than both my Hagstrom with all Strat hardware and scale, and my SuperSonic.

There is some science to the resonance of the shorter string length being accentuated at certain frequencies compared to the longer lengths. It's science, dude, it's been measured with scopes.

The Jag in particular is a heavier guitar than my others, but with less tension at the same tuning it comes out as darker. I even took it to an ALBQ and couldn't get anything but mud out of a Big Muff pedal, my Jag is just a dark guitar.

pickups or pots perhaps?

my mim jag is really fucking bright, and gets really really good tones out of a big muff pedal.
it can get muddy and dark, or creamy and bright using the "strangle switch".

Both pots and pickups have an impact for sure. All Jaguars come with 1Meg pots (unless you change them out) in the Lead circuit and 50K pots in the Rhythm circuit. The CP Jags are listed Special Design Hot Jaguar Single-Coil Pickups. The "strangle" switch is a hi pass filter which doesn't let some of the low end pass through when its on. The reduced low end frequency takes some of the muddiness out and brightens up the signal.