10 Ways To Avoid Gutiar Tuning Nightmares

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:29 pm

Dunno if this should be in the Resources Forum or maybe the Recording Forum, or even tacked on to the back end of the Strings thread, but I thought it was an interesting read.

http://www.recordingreview.com/blog/ele ... ightmares/

IroniaSudby · Post by **IroniaSudby** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:23 am

Fuck that. Some guy giving me all this shit i have to go through just to play
a tune. I dont think a lot of those great punk rock records i listen to followed this
too much.

Dillon · Post by **Dillon** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:16 am

#1) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#2) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#3) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#4) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#5) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#6) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#7) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#8) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#9) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#10) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar

.....

Really though, there is some good advice in there for beginners. Good post. Except for #8, F that noise.

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:50 am

On thing that's worked well for me is balancing the tuning between multiple sources on the guitar.

For example, if the low E and A are tuned I balance the D by comparing the 12th fret harmonic on the E to the fretted 4th string E and the 12th fret A harmonic the the 7th fret on the D. I tune each string to 2-3 reference pitches on different strings.

Also, it pays to remember that the 7th fret harmonic is always flat. So if you tune using the 5/7 harmonic method from bottom to top, you'll end up being substantially too sharp on the top strings.

CaptainGD · Post by **CaptainGD** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:10 am

Will wrote:Also, it pays to remember that the 7th fret harmonic is always flat. So if you tune using the 5/7 harmonic method from bottom to top, you'll end up being substantially too sharp on the top strings.

...Shit.

That explains so much.

gaybear · Post by **gaybear** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:11 am

some useful stuff on there

i get so frustrated seeing bands that should sound awesome, but they don't work on tuning.

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:35 am

CaptainGD wrote:
Will wrote:Also, it pays to remember that the 7th fret harmonic is always flat. So if you tune using the 5/7 harmonic method from bottom to top, you'll end up being substantially too sharp on the top strings.
...Shit.
That explains so much.

Yes. The 7th fret harmonic is mathematically perfect: a 3/2 Pythagorean 5th. The Pythagorean tuning system was used in Europe from the Classical period to the mid 18th century. It's mathematically perfect, but each key requires a subtlety different tuning. No problem for violins, but a huge problem for fretted instruments and piano/organ. What we use now is equal temperament, which balances all notes so that all keys use the exact same tuning. Unfortunately, it's a much more complicated mathematical relationship. The only truly "in-tune" harmonics on the guitar are the octaves - 12th, 5th, and 24th frets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning

gaybear · Post by **gaybear** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:44 am

the problem with tuning to harmonics, is that it doesn't take into account how you fret your notes

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:58 am

Dillon wrote:#1) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#2) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#3) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#4) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#5) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#6) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#7) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#8) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#9) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#10) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar

.....

Not trew dewd. The overall price of a guitar is not always relative to the relative quality of the tuning heads and their stability. I have played and recorded with a Â£65 wesley stratocaster for over a year now and its tuners are cheap and nasty to the point of having a plastic circle bit on the back but the actual tuning action is smooth and secure. Holds tune as nearly as well as my strat with sperzels which is ruddy good.

Some expensive guitars are dog shit too.

johnnyseven · Post by **johnnyseven** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:03 pm

My US Strat is rubbish at holding it's tuning however both my Japanese Jazzmasters are awesome at holding their tuning, I could quite easily play a gig without having to retune in the middle. I thought the US guitars were supposed to be of higher quality?

George · Post by **George** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:12 pm

I've read some of his articles before and looked at that forum. Guy's a complete idiot.

Nothing about how to replace strings or getting a nice amount of tidy winds round the tuning head. Nor intonation or general setup.

Sharpen the G, throw away the tuner and play a D chord? Fuck off.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm

johnnyseven wrote:My US Strat is rubbish at holding it's tuning however both my Japanese Jazzmasters are awesome at holding their tuning, I could quite easily play a gig without having to retune in the middle. I thought the US guitars were supposed to be of higher quality?

I think its fair to say that when people are talking about higher quality it can sometimes reflect very small differences that may or may not translate to either sound or stability. Actual mechanical quality in tuners, for example, will make the difference and some tuners that are made with more expensive parts and with a more hands on approach MAY generally be of a higher quality standard than cheap ass ones made out of play dough - it's probably more about the quality control involved - a run of 100 hand made guitars using top quality materials will likely be of a consistent standard and of 100 cheap mass produced the consistentcy could be much less - say 60 decent ones of consistent standard and 40 where minor things serve to fuck things up.

Never forget a woo factor in that people 'feel' something is better if they are led to that expectation by pricing and marketing and this can be factor - this is why the whole lawyer guitar phenomena exists.... i mean now I've set it up my Wesley will play as well as any Â£3000 guitar in the manner that actually counts. Sure the pups probably wont be in the same league but I can swap those out and replace the wiring and pots for another Â£50 and anyway some of us like some sloppyness in our sound.

Julian · Post by **Julian** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:52 pm

I've never had problems as long as I do four things:

1. Intonate
2. Use a good gauge (I like 10-52s)
3. stretch strings after changing them Or simply give the guitar a day and re-tune it.
4. Don't touch the whammy bar

Getting better tuners works well too I'm sure, or getting better springs for one's whammy. . . but I haven't tried those.

hugh · Post by **hugh** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:49 pm

Will wrote:
CaptainGD wrote:
Will wrote:Also, it pays to remember that the 7th fret harmonic is always flat. So if you tune using the 5/7 harmonic method from bottom to top, you'll end up being substantially too sharp on the top strings.
...Shit.
That explains so much.
Yes. The 7th fret harmonic is mathematically perfect: a 3/2 Pythagorean 5th. The Pythagorean tuning system was used in Europe from the Classical period to the mid 18th century. It's mathematically perfect, but each key requires a subtlety different tuning. No problem for violins, but a huge problem for fretted instruments and piano/organ. What we use now is equal temperament, which balances all notes so that all keys use the exact same tuning. Unfortunately, it's a much more complicated mathematical relationship. The only truly "in-tune" harmonics on the guitar are the octaves - 12th, 5th, and 24th frets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning

The well tempered piano tuning was developed by Bach IIRC. He wrote a bunch of fugues in each key to be played on the clavier (?) to show off the fact that he didn't have to retune for each different key. I learned this a while ago, so don't take it as gospel.

Julian · Post by **Julian** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:53 pm

Actually on a well intonated guitar, tuning to the 7th harmonic is OK. Equal temperament may not be perfectly close to the Pythagorean ratios, but it does a pretty damn good job on 5ths. You might not tune perfectly that way, but you're probably not going to tune perfectly any way by ear. Anyways, you'll be pretty close.

Dillon · Post by **Dillon** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:36 pm

Dave wrote:
Dillon wrote:#1) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#2) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#3) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#4) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#5) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#6) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#7) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#8) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#9) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar
#10) Don't record or play live with a cheap ass guitar

.....
Not trew dewd. The overall price of a guitar is not always relative to the relative quality of the tuning heads and their stability. I have played and recorded with a Â£65 wesley stratocaster for over a year now and its tuners are cheap and nasty to the point of having a plastic circle bit on the back but the actual tuning action is smooth and secure. Holds tune as nearly as well as my strat with sperzels which is ruddy good.

Some expensive guitars are dog shit too.

Haha, I was only being half serious, mostly making a (drunken) bad joke. Also, I wasn't necessarily referring to the price of the guitar, more the quality / design of key components. My squier tele stays in tune better than my US strat, but that's because the nut on the strat is balls. In my experience the tuners don't actually make much of a difference as far as staying in tune goes...it's the nut and the bridge.

Will · Post by **Will** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:35 pm

hugh wrote:The well tempered piano tuning was developed by Bach IIRC. He wrote a bunch of fugues in each key to be played on the clavier (?) to show off the fact that he didn't have to retune for each different key. I learned this a while ago, so don't take it as gospel.

I think Bach was just the first adopter. Most musicians and critics thought tempered tuning sounded awful, so it required many musicians over a long time to make it the standard.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:46 pm

Will wrote:
hugh wrote:The well tempered piano tuning was developed by Bach IIRC. He wrote a bunch of fugues in each key to be played on the clavier (?) to show off the fact that he didn't have to retune for each different key. I learned this a while ago, so don't take it as gospel.
I think Bach was just the first adopter. Most musicians and critics thought tempered tuning sounded awful, so it required many musicians over a long time to make it the standard.

By Bach's time there were many different tuning systems and temperament systems. There is some speculation about Bach's Preludes and Fugues. Until recently (1930's) we thought that they were written to showcase equal temperament, where each key is the same. This is definitely not the case.

It is possible, and has been argued convincingly by several academics, that Bach wrote the Preludes and Fugues to showcase a different type of temperament where all keys were playable. This seems likely, but we can't be certain. The main problem is that Bach didn't write down what this tuning system might be, so there is no concrete evidence for its existence.

There were few pan-tonal (ie. working in all keys) tuning systems at the time, and none were popular.

dezb1 · Post by **dezb1** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:55 pm

After buying a guitar with a trem for the first time (my rather nice Burns cobra) I decided I liked the idea of floating the bridge, however this gave me some serious tuning problems every time I used the trem.
A combination of these two YouTube vids sorted it out I can now dive bomb the bridge and it returns to tune every time.

Angle the spring claw like the first video, and do the diving tuning thing from the second vid. No more tuning probs:

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

Ps: the guy in the first vid's a bit of a cock but what he says makes sense

and this:

Julian wrote:
x. Use a good gauge (I like 10-52s)
x. stretch strings after changing them

johnnyseven · Post by **johnnyseven** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:57 pm

BacchusPaul wrote:
Will wrote:
hugh wrote:The well tempered piano tuning was developed by Bach IIRC. He wrote a bunch of fugues in each key to be played on the clavier (?) to show off the fact that he didn't have to retune for each different key. I learned this a while ago, so don't take it as gospel.
I think Bach was just the first adopter. Most musicians and critics thought tempered tuning sounded awful, so it required many musicians over a long time to make it the standard.
By Bach's time there were many different tuning systems and temperament systems. There is some speculation about Bach's Preludes and Fugues. Until recently (1930's) we thought that they were written to showcase equal temperament, where each key is the same. This is definitely not the case.

It is possible, and has been argued convincingly by several academics, that Bach wrote the Preludes and Fugues to showcase a different type of temperament where all keys were playable. This seems likely, but we can't be certain. The main problem is that Bach didn't write down what this tuning system might be, so there is no concrete evidence for its existence.

There were few pan-tonal (ie. working in all keys) tuning systems at the time, and none were popular.

My amp goes to 11.