1966 Fender Jaguar

millagurnzie · Post by **millagurnzie** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:03 am

That thing is sperm-worthy, I am in the process of selling my jazzmaster to grab a vintage jaguar. What is the output and sound like of the vintage jag pickups?

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:11 am

are they reissue f tuners or vintage? there's two different kinds of vintage f tuners (I'm sure I've bored plenty of folks by discussing it in the past).

that vintage CAR really does look great. I think the "car h8ers" come from the fact that fender has cheapened it's worth as a custom color by offering it on their cheapest guitars. there's something wrong about affinity squiers coming in a color that was previously reserved for their nicest guitars.

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:30 am

Haze wrote:love it when you can see the firemist gold through the red

yes! I've always heard it was shoreline gold though. it looks more firemist-ish there though.

as for the other colors underneath, it was real common for them to do custom colors over sunburst. the yellow stain serves as the center color of the burst. I'm pretty sure that at that time it was standard practice for them to send all guitar bodies through the yellow stain since most ended up being painted sunburst. the white is a primer they laid down under custom colors.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:56 pm

millagurnzie- um, i'm not really sure what the exact output is, but i'd imagine it's between 5 and 6k. sound-wise from what i remember it's not that different from the sound of a CIJ, if you A/B'd them with your eyes closed i think you'd be hard pushed to tell which was which. but obviously this one feels a hundred times nicer to play, in my humble opinion. the neck is as smooth as a baby's leg.

mages- the F tuners are from my old 1978 musicmaster. what are the differences between the two types? i've heard the earlier ones are pretty hard to find. there are F tuners on my coronado, but i've no idea if they're original. they look identical externally.

i'm sure the finish is CAR over sunburst, you can see the layers coming through the paint chips round the edges- yellow, black, white, gold, then the top red coat. there are a couple of parts further into the body where you can see red coming through very close to the wood, so i think it's pretty definite.

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:09 pm

the f tuners from that era were made by fender in the fullerton, ca factory. at the end of the 60s they started using innards made by schaller. the stamped steel cover was still made by fender. you can tell the schaller ones because if you take the tuner out it says, "made in w. germany" on it. the schaller tuners were more consistent in quality. the early fender-made ones are what gave f tuners a bad rep. although there's not many examples of bad ones around today because they've all been replaced by the dealer (if they broke soon after purchase) or replaced by home modifications like yours.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:11 pm

hmm, i'm going to have to investigate... i've never taken the stamped cover off one before, hope i don't break it...

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:21 pm

I don't remember where it says it on there you might have to take the whole tuner out. but it definitely said it on the tuners on my '78 mustang. there were some other changes in the 70s too, they changed from nickel plating to chrome plating and changed from chrome plated metal buttons to chrome plated plastic buttons.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:25 pm

i popped a tuner off the coronado and took the cover off. it doesn't have anything stamped anywhere on the tuner or inside the cover. maybe they are indeed the OG tuners? i've gigged with this guitar and they're fine, i wouldn't get through a whole set without re-tuning, but i doubt i'd manage that with any guitar the way i hit them.

benecol · Post by **benecol** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:25 pm

stewart wrote:hmm, i'm going to have to investigate... i've never taken the stamped cover off one before, hope i don't break it...

STOP. Don't do it. I did this to a Kluson and fucked it to death.

Just STOP.

EDIT: too late AAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:29 pm

it's fine, it just slid out. had loads of manky old green oxide dust inside... i'm probably going to die a lord carnarvon style death this evening.

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:46 pm

I dunno man, there must be a lot more variation in the 70s ones than I realized. it's hard to find any info on 70s era fenders, I was just sharing what I'd found in my experience.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:04 pm

aye, but the coronado is a '67, it could be the original tuners on that, is what i'm saying. i haven't compared them to the 78 ones i put on the jag... i'll maybe have a look later on.

Gavin · Post by **Gavin** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:21 pm

stewart wrote:it's fine, it just slid out. had loads of manky old green oxide dust inside... i'm probably going to die a lord carnarvon style death this evening.

roffle

Phil O'Keefe · Post by **Phil O'Keefe** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:12 pm

Mages wrote:the f tuners from that era were made by fender in the fullerton, ca factory. at the end of the 60s they started using innards made by schaller. the stamped steel cover was still made by fender. you can tell the schaller ones because if you take the tuner out it says, "made in w. germany" on it. the schaller tuners were more consistent in quality. the early fender-made ones are what gave f tuners a bad rep. although there's not many examples of bad ones around today because they've all been replaced by the dealer (if they broke soon after purchase) or replaced by home modifications like yours.

The Fender made F tuners (I've never owned a guitar with the Schaller F tuners on it, although I have owned other Schaller tuners and liked them) are THE worst tuners ever made. Or at least the worst ones I've ever used on any decent quality (or better) guitar.

They are absolutely dreadful.

I've got three sets of them here. One on a late '65 neck (VERY early examples), one on a '71 neck, and one on a '75 neck. They all are the Fender made versions as far as I can tell - unlike the Schaller versions, you can't take them apart (flaw #1). There's no grease / lubrication hole. My biggest complaint is that they're overly stiff and lack smoothness overall; which makes fine tuning adjustments a pain. They work, but not like a good pair of Gotohs or Klusons. Heck, even Ping tuners are an improvement over Fender made F tuners IMHO.

Fender makes a reissue of them - actually, I believe the reissues are made by Schaller. The problem is, they're not a drop in replacement for the vintage (mid 70s and older) tuners - you have to drill out a hole in the back of the headstock for each tuner in order for the new ones to fit. Whomever came up with that idea should be slapped. The folks who need the tuners the most can't use them without having to modify their vintage necks.

Yeah, they'll work on late 70s era Fenders, but that's only a fraction of the guitars that F tuners appeared on, and the original "shaft only" design would work on either type of headstock.

Current Schaller made reissues - notice the extra thickness near the base of the tuner shaft:

Original tuners have just straight shafts. These are the original Fender built versions:

If there's an easy / safe way to disassemble them, I haven't figured it out / read about it anywhere. I do know you can disassemble the Schaller made versions...

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:24 pm

i disassembled one quite easily, came apart no bother. i don't think they're all that bad. i'll say vintage klusons are better, definitely, but they're expensive and it means more screw holes in the back of the headstock (and dare i say.... not vintage correct *shields head*). it'd be nice if someone made direct drop in replacement F tuners though, surely it isn't that difficult?

Mages · Post by **Mages** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:39 pm

stewart wrote:i disassembled one quite easily, came apart no bother.

do yours look like the ones in that last picture phil posted? the schaller ones don't look like that. they are a little piece of cast metal with a thin metal band that goes over it.

Phil O'Keefe · Post by **Phil O'Keefe** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:39 pm

I can't imagine it would have been any harder to make them "right" than to make them the way they did on the reissues, but what do I know?

They do have both chromed and plastic knob versions of the reissues available, so externally, they'll look "right"... but I really don't like the idea of having to countersink into the headstock - it kills the "vintage value" of the neck (which is bullpuckey IMO since it improves the usability of the neck / guitar) and unless it's done carefully (not recommended for the inexperienced DIY crowd) you risk splitting the headstock.

Stewart, how did you disassemble yours? I've tried gently prying mine apart and pulling them apart, but the covers hold fast and don't budge.

BTW, the OP Jaguar is a beauty! Nice score!

Phil O'Keefe · Post by **Phil O'Keefe** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:41 pm

Mages wrote:
stewart wrote:i disassembled one quite easily, came apart no bother.
do yours look like the ones in that last picture phil posted? the schaller ones don't look like that. they are a little piece of cast metal with a thin metal band that goes over it.

Yeah, and IIRC, the metal band is brass or copper colored, isn't it? The old Schaller versions are supposedly able to be taken apart, but I've never figured out how to do it with Fender built F tuners. I even asked my buddy Dennis (a Fender CS master builder) and he said there's no way to disassemble the old ones. But what does he know...?

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:07 pm

'scuse the shady phone pics:

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:16 pm

just looked at one of the '78 tuners i stuck on the jag- they're the same as above.

crazy.