Squier Jaguars and Jazzmasters?

othomas2 · Post by **othomas2** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:40 pm

Been playing the Jazzy quite a lot in the last few days.... for certain application the pickups are great. For clean and light gain they sound sublime... anymore gain and it gets messy and pretty nasty. With the hard tail, it almost has a tele like response to it. Love the chunky maple neck and the overall features.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:09 pm

Well maybe I'll just go ahead and buy a couple of .22 uF Orange drops if I want to do the comparison right.

Anyway, I can tell you that the bass "sounds" different acoustically. I don't know what else I can say. I haven't tried putting the same neck on it, but even with the same strings, one bass sounds mellow and the other sounds bright. The electronics come into this much later.

It seems obvious to me that different tonewood affects the acoustic sound of the instrument, and the pickup captures what it sees. It's not a dominating factor but it certainly is a factor in tone.

SKC Willie · Post by **SKC Willie** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:49 pm

I'm not saying it's not a factor and acoustically it more prominent but I don't buy electric guitars to play acoustically.

My main point is that you can never hear a recording of a guitar and say, without a doubt, that the guitar being played is made out of basswood or alder. You can however, here a recording and tell the difference between humbuckers and single coils. Also, the only way I'll ever be totally convinced that wood makes a legitimate factor in tone is if you can play identical guitars (everything down to the same number of coats of paint, color of paint, hardware, neck strings) and you hook it up to machines and show me the difference in the sound waves.

Maybe I'm just damn stubborn but until I experience a dramatic difference in real life, not some dude playing his Mustang basses on youtube (nothing personal), I'm just not buying it.

Fran · Post by **Fran** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:28 pm

For what its worth me and rob(og) have built guitars from scratch and both agreed 'tonewood' is 99% bollocks.
I've had stuff made from; Mahogany, Alder, Basswood, MDF, Ash, Acrylic, Plywood, Poplar etc. and you would struggle to pick out differences going through the same amplified set up, any differences would usually be down to construction, hardware and electronics.
Mass of wood makes more difference than what the actual wood is imo.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:43 pm

I would never suggest that you can "hear" alder or you can hear basswood or whatever. What I'm suggesting is that all other things being equal, there are differences.

In any case, I've said many times before that I can barely tell the difference on a guitar. It's only on bass that I can really tell. I think it has to do with the fact that bass just has more audible harmonics and single notes are played for longer and more frequently. I mean, consider the fact that the E string on a bass is 41 Hz and many bass cabs can barely even get there, the SVT 810 is rated to 58 Hz with "usable" frequency of 40 Hz, whatever that means. Anyway, I guess I'm trying to argue that you don't often hear the root note as much as you hear overtones and as such, I think tonewood matters a lot more than on guitar.

Anyway, it's clear you're not changing your mind, so I guess there's no point in me neck swapping or doing any of that.

You're not one of those maple and rosewood sound the same people, though, are you? Anyway, it's funny that you think there's a difference between coats of paint and hardware and all that but when it comes to the bulk of the weight of the instrument, you don't think it matters.

Billy3000 · Post by **Billy3000** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:03 am

honeyiscool wrote:Well maybe I'll just go ahead and buy a couple of .22 uF Orange drops if I want to do the comparison right.

Anyway, I can tell you that the bass "sounds" different acoustically. I don't know what else I can say. I haven't tried putting the same neck on it, but even with the same strings, one bass sounds mellow and the other sounds bright. The electronics come into this much later.

It seems obvious to me that different tonewood affects the acoustic sound of the instrument, and the pickup captures what it sees. It's not a dominating factor but it certainly is a factor in tone.

But the point is that you keep saying they sound different because of the wood they're made out of, when you have said yourself that they are not wired up the same. Clearly, the reason they sound so wildly different is because they are not wired the same, not because of the wood. If you want to convince us that the wood makes the difference, put the same two pickups in each bass, and buy the same brand and value of pots, same brand and value of caps, wire them up exactly the same, and then tell us that they still sound wildly different. You're almost completely ignoring the fact that they aren't wired the same and jumping to the conclusion that it's because of tonewood.

As far as the wood goes, it's more about construction of the body than the actual wood it's made of. String through body hardtail vs tremolo, set neck vs bolt on vs neck through body, one piece body vs two piece vs three piece etc. That's what is going to make the difference and pretty much only in terms of sustain, not so much in the way of tone, since it's an electrical signal. how can wood inject it's "tone" into an electrical signal?

Wood makes a difference on an acoustic guitar for obvious reasons, not on an electric.

SKC Willie · Post by **SKC Willie** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:06 am

I'm not arguing that the number of coats has anything to do with tone but if you're going to an experiment to see if there is a difference in sound waves, you have to take all of those things into account.

I agree with you to an extent that, in theory, it will change the sound of the guitar or bass but, to me, the way the wood sounds would never prevent me from buying a guitar that I liked and was at a good price. Now, if you don't like how soft the wood is, I think you would have a legit point (which you did state) but to sit here and say that basswood sounds like mahogany is silly to me.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:12 am

Or maybe they don't sound the same because they don't sound the same acoustically. The MM is much louder and brighter, and the Bronco is much more muted and mellow. The tonal differences out of the amp pretty much reflect that.

Yeah, the MM has a .22 uF cap and the other has a mystery cap, probably .47, not sure. Does that really describe how the alder/poplar/whatever body bass has a thin, guitar-like sound when picked and the basswood body bass has a deep, rich sound when picked? I thought all that the cap does is roll off the treble an amount, nothing to do with how much mids you're getting.

I'm sure if I took the tone controls out of the equation, not much would change. Of course, it wouldn't be that hard to wire both basses with a completed P-bass wiring harness I happen to have, I could easily alligator clip it or something.

Billy3000 · Post by **Billy3000** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:58 am

honeyiscool wrote:Or maybe they don't sound the same because they don't sound the same acoustically. The MM is much louder and brighter, and the Bronco is much more muted and mellow. The tonal differences out of the amp pretty much reflect that.

Yeah, the MM has a .22 uF cap and the other has a mystery cap, probably .47, not sure. Does that really describe how the alder/poplar/whatever body bass has a thin, guitar-like sound when picked and the basswood body bass has a deep, rich sound when picked? I thought all that the cap does is roll off the treble an amount, nothing to do with how much mids you're getting.

I'm sure if I took the tone controls out of the equation, not much would change. Of course, it wouldn't be that hard to wire both basses with a completed P-bass wiring harness I happen to have, I could easily alligator clip it or something.

I'll state it one sentence rather than a paragraph. Yes the electronics make the difference. If you want to test it, make them both the same. Record demos and show us that they're different with the same wiring.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:09 am

Of course, if I did that, people would dismiss any findings as "it must be something else." I'll do it next week anyway. What have I got to lose?

Billy3000 · Post by **Billy3000** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:19 am

honeyiscool wrote:Of course, if I did that, people would dismiss any findings as "it must be something else." I'll do it next week anyway. What have I got to lose?

You just said you didn't do that. The caps are different.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:22 am

What? I didn't do anything yet. I said I would make a comparison between two bass bodies with the same neck and strings. If it matters that much, I will do the test with no volume or tone pots, straight to output jack.

I'd do it this week but I have to go out of town.

Billy3000 · Post by **Billy3000** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:16 am

honeyiscool wrote:What? I didn't do anything yet. I said I would make a comparison between two bass bodies with the same neck and strings. If it matters that much, I will do the test with no volume or tone pots, straight to output jack.

I'd do it this week but I have to go out of town.

my bad, I actually misread the post that I was responding to. I read where you said "of course, if I did that..." as "of course I did that" thus my response. haha, sorry!

SGJarrod · Post by **SGJarrod** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:23 am

so, yeah..... I think that Jaguar is pretty cool...

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:44 pm

Billy3000 wrote:my bad, I actually misread the post that I was responding to. I read where you said "of course, if I did that..." as "of course I did that" thus my response. haha, sorry!

Funny thing is I actually looked in the control cavity of both basses yesterday and far from a mystery cap, I'd used an Orange Drop .22 uF and 250k Alpha pots to rewire the Bronco. Yeah, the MM has CTS pots and a non-Orange .22 uF pot but they're actually wired the same. And of course, no two pickups are the same, but Lace Sensors are probably the most consistent pickups you'll find.

SGJarrod wrote:so, yeah..... I think that Jaguar is pretty cool...

Initially I thought so, but the more I look at it, the more it just seems a bit off. I think if I look at it more, I'll like it again.

Ankhanu · Post by **Ankhanu** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:56 pm

I can't dig the Jag at all. I can't dig the Blacktop either. Hardtailed, dual-bucker, simple switching, Jaguar-bodied guitars just don't make a Jag for me.

SGJarrod · Post by **SGJarrod** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:22 pm

I'm a Gibson guy at heart so it is a cool Jag for the likes of me..... athough a proper trem would rock..... I likey simple switching and beefy humbuckers......

the HBs are the Duncan Designed....bridge is a JB and the Neck is the Jazz...both are 4 wire, I would totally put in a push pull for the volume pot......

Also, can/how would u wire up a toggley or slide switch for a straggle switch if desired? Like a toggley for the pu's and a normal slide switch for the strangle would be cool....

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:27 pm

I think what I would do with a guitar like this is just use the Duncan Triple Shot on the two pickups.

wadeaminute · Post by **wadeaminute** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:26 am

Got my Fiesta Red Jaguar today. Like it much.
And I tried the Jazzmaster - liked the feel of the neck.

SGJarrod · Post by **SGJarrod** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:29 am

wadeaminute wrote:Got my Fiesta Red Jaguar today. Like it much.
And I tried the Jazzmaster - liked the feel of the neck.

Awesome!

If you ever pop that pick guard off let me know if the pickups are 4 wire... I may have some plans....

Also how r u getting on with the bridge? is it solid?