Dustin Kensrue of Thrice building a P-Rails Jaguar!

[Haze]

Dustin is using warmoth neck and body and some parts and has Nash Guitars do the rest. The body is a jag body ith the bridge moved
back for 25.5 scale.
His switching I explained in this thread earlier

[jim93]

Seconded
about the scale length change making this a Jazzmaster although the dude from thrice doesnt seem to know what he is talking about anyways.

[Haze]

He opted for a Jaguar body for the switching routes but Thrice usually plays at least a full step down and drop A for baritone songs, so a 24" scale isn't exactly going to work, so drop the bridge back and it makes sense.

[honeyiscool]

Why are people dissing this guy anyway?

Thrice is a very popular band for a different generation and they're quite good if you really listen to them instead of assuming that every band from the 2000s with a screamer is a shitty mallcore band that is uniformly and unequivocally shit. I'm pretty sure that many of your heroes sound like shit to other people.

Most of us spend all kinds of time talking about what we do to our Mustangs and Jaguars because they're not quite right and even the most ardent fans often have to admit that stock designs only work in the best of cases and under certain scenarios. So we get it. Sometimes Mustangs and Jaguars in their vintage state are kind of one of those things that often end up in compromises, whether it's to do with string gauge, tuning, tremolo usability, tuning stability, whatever. So what's with all the personal attacks? This guy loves the Jaguar looks but wants to make it into something a little more his style? Whatever. Maybe you guys don't see it that way, but I was always attracted to the Jaguar because of its looks, I could care less about its unique features and its tone, I'd put Strat pickups/P-Rails with something usable in it over Jaguar pickups and rhythm circuit any day. Many of you swear by the rhythm circuit. Good for you. It doesn't work for a lot of other people.

Shit, Bilinda overwhelmingly seems to get a pass for her "Mustang." What exactly is Mustang about her guitar other than the scratchplate and the two angled pickup pickguard route? There are no slide switches, it's a long scale, the trem is straight up Jazzmaster, the pickups look Strat with exposed pole pieces, the pickguard is changed as well. Do you really think of that as disrespecting the Mustang? To me, it just means girl wants something that looks like a Mustang, plays like a Jazzmaster. Fine, I can live with that, and it seems most people think that her guitar is a neat idea.

This guy wants something that looks like a Jaguar, plays like something else. Let him be. Even he himself acknowledges that this is a bastardization and something that reflects HIS wishes, and the whole thing reads like it was addressed intimately to his fans, explaining what he wants to do. It was not intended to diss the short scale crowd and he probably would have written it differently if he had been addressing this forum. And even so, in my short time, I've noticed a lot of users using words like "dumb" to describe Mustang and Jaguar switching and "unreliable" and "unstable" to describe Jaguar trems, so it's not like we've never voiced these concerns before.

[ekwatts]

You're absolutely right about everything.

Then he posted it on the internet, throwing it open to criticism. So, y'know, we can say what we like about his guitar and his douchetardiness.

[brianjdc]

mallcore... i havent heard that term in a bit.. lol

[ekwatts]

I don't even know what that is.

I realise I'm probably at risk of coming across like one of those dickheads that insist music was better in some ill-defined flowery version of the past, but alot of this modern stuff I can't get my head round at all. I realise this kind of started with "emo" but all these American bands that sound like Fallout Boy and look like they spent most of their endowments on Abercombie and Fitch stores whenever they weren't getting yet another idiotic tattoo baffles me completely. Even moreso when you see British kids grabbing onto it as though it's some sort of edgy, alternative music.

[George]

"Mal" is French for bad, wrong, or sad.

I'm going with that.

[Billy3000]

I don't even know what that is.

I realise I'm probably at risk of coming across like one of those dickheads that insist music was better in some ill-defined flowery version of the past, but alot of this modern stuff I can't get my head round at all. I realise this kind of started with "emo" but all these American bands that sound like Fallout Boy and look like they spent most of their endowments on Abercombie and Fitch stores whenever they weren't getting yet another idiotic tattoo baffles me completely. Even moreso when you see British kids grabbing onto it as though it's some sort of edgy, alternative music.

I don't even know where to begin with this...

Have you ever listened to either Thrice or Fall Out Boy? They sound NOTHING alike. As for the Abercrombie remark, that's more of the "OMG I HAVE TO GET A NEW OUTFIT FOR THE DAVE MATTHEWS BAND TOUR THAT I'M GOING TO FOLLOW AROUND TEH COUNTRY ALL SUMMER!" crowd. The idiotic tattoo comment can really be applied to pretty much every popular crowd in america these days though.

[SKC Willie]

I like thrice and I like that guitar.

[Space_Expert]

Dustin is using warmoth neck and body and some parts and has Nash Guitars do the rest. The body is a jag body ith the bridge moved
back for 25.5 scale.
His switching I explained in this thread earlier

This is probably gonna sound like a stupid question, but if I got a Warmoth neck for my Jaguar, I'd have to move the bridge back, right? How far would I need to move it back, and how would I go about doing that? Also, why is it necessary to do that for a longer scale neck?

I completely forgot that you mentioned the switching (forgot P-rails need a ton of knobs/switches to get the most out of them). Do you still know where I can get a control plate that has the toggle in there? I'd really like to get one so I can use the other two sliders for series/parallel and turning the strangle switch on/off.

(sorry for asking so many questions, but I figured I'd save forum space and ask here since it's relevant to the thread topic)

Why are people dissing this guy anyway?

Thrice is a very popular band for a different generation and they're quite good if you really listen to them instead of assuming that every band from the 2000s with a screamer is a shitty mallcore band that is uniformly and unequivocally shit. I'm pretty sure that many of your heroes sound like shit to other people.

Most of us spend all kinds of time talking about what we do to our Mustangs and Jaguars because they're not quite right and even the most ardent fans often have to admit that stock designs only work in the best of cases and under certain scenarios. So we get it. Sometimes Mustangs and Jaguars in their vintage state are kind of one of those things that often end up in compromises, whether it's to do with string gauge, tuning, tremolo usability, tuning stability, whatever. So what's with all the personal attacks? This guy loves the Jaguar looks but wants to make it into something a little more his style? Whatever. Maybe you guys don't see it that way, but I was always attracted to the Jaguar because of its looks, I could care less about its unique features and its tone, I'd put Strat pickups/P-Rails with something usable in it over Jaguar pickups and rhythm circuit any day. Many of you swear by the rhythm circuit. Good for you. It doesn't work for a lot of other people.

Shit, Bilinda overwhelmingly seems to get a pass for her "Mustang." What exactly is Mustang about her guitar other than the scratchplate and the two angled pickup pickguard route? There are no slide switches, it's a long scale, the trem is straight up Jazzmaster, the pickups look Strat with exposed pole pieces, the pickguard is changed as well. Do you really think of that as disrespecting the Mustang? To me, it just means girl wants something that looks like a Mustang, plays like a Jazzmaster. Fine, I can live with that, and it seems most people think that her guitar is a neat idea.

This guy wants something that looks like a Jaguar, plays like something else. Let him be. Even he himself acknowledges that this is a bastardization and something that reflects HIS wishes, and the whole thing reads like it was addressed intimately to his fans, explaining what he wants to do. It was not intended to diss the short scale crowd and he probably would have written it differently if he had been addressing this forum. And even so, in my short time, I've noticed a lot of users using words like "dumb" to describe Mustang and Jaguar switching and "unreliable" and "unstable" to describe Jaguar trems, so it's not like we've never voiced these concerns before.

Second that. I like the Jaguar sounds/aesthetics way more than the Jazzmaster, but I kind of like the extra length. That being said, I hated how the AVRI Jazzmaster neck felt in my hand when I played one (a little too wide for my taste).

Also, I'm pretty sure most people bashing Thrice only listened to stuff like this:

But for the past couple years, Thrice has really expanded on their sonic territory and sound like this: and this:

Pretty positive that's not typical metalcore crap, or can even be constituted as metalcore in general. Even their "heavy" songs aren't much heavier than most post-hardcore bands. Simply because they have a couple songs in Drop A and have some growled vocals doesn't make them metalcore. That's like saying Glassjaw's "Coloring Book EP" is metalcore because Justin's using a Baritone jaguar...

[taylornutt]

Dustin is using warmoth neck and body and some parts and has Nash Guitars do the rest. The body is a jag body ith the bridge moved
back for 25.5 scale.
His switching I explained in this thread earlier

This is probably gonna sound like a stupid question, but if I got a Warmoth neck for my Jaguar, I'd have to move the bridge back, right? How far would I need to move it back, and how would I go about doing that? Also, why is it necessary to do that for a longer scale neck?

I completely forgot that you mentioned the switching (forgot P-rails need a ton of knobs/switches to get the most out of them). Do you still know where I can get a control plate that has the toggle in there? I'd really like to get one so I can use the other two sliders for series/parallel and turning the strangle switch on/off.

Second that. I like the Jaguar sounds/aesthetics way more than the Jazzmaster, but I kind of like the extra length. That being said, I hated how the AVRI Jazzmaster neck felt in my hand when I played one (a little too wide for my taste).

1) If you bought a 25.5" scale neck for the Jaguar, you have to move bridge back so the distance from the nut to the Bridge is 25.5" I would attach the new neck and then measure 25.5" and move the bridge accordingly. If you don't move the bridge your intonation get's screwed up.
2) when you say "too wide" are you referring to fret spacing or the neck contours? If the frets are too far apart, then stick with the normal neck. If you don't like the chunkiness or shape of the neck, simply find another neck with a different profile you do like. Lots of options out there.

[Space_Expert]

1) If you bought a 25.5" scale neck for the Jaguar, you have to move bridge back so the distance from the nut to the Bridge is 25.5" I would attach the new neck and then measure 25.5" and move the bridge accordingly. If you don't move the bridge your intonation get's screwed up.
2) when you say "too wide" are you referring to fret spacing or the neck contours? If the frets are too far apart, then stick with the normal neck. If you don't like the chunkiness or shape of the neck, simply find another neck with a different profile you do like. Lots of options out there.

1) Alright, that makes sense, but aren't there such things as conversion necks that are just drop - in replacements? Will a warmoth neck fit in the CIJ Jaguar I have then? The routing for the bridge (if I need to) wouldn't be that major, would it?
2) I liked the fret spacing (which is why I want a longer neck), but it was too wide and fat for my tastes. I like thumbing notes on my low E and it's easier to do with the Jaguar than the Jazzmaster, but when I get closer to the neck the fret spacing is a bit tight, which relates back to 1).

[Haze]

Listen to "Hold Fast Hope" and then try and say their metalcore/screamo etc. Or Digital Sea and how their sonically diverse. Anything in Beggars and you'll see how they've progressed and how epic of a band they have become. When I have kids with shitty music to grow up with, I'll tell them of bands like Radiohead and Thrice.

[taylornutt]

1) If you bought a 25.5" scale neck for the Jaguar, you have to move bridge back so the distance from the nut to the Bridge is 25.5" I would attach the new neck and then measure 25.5" and move the bridge accordingly. If you don't move the bridge your intonation get's screwed up.
2) when you say "too wide" are you referring to fret spacing or the neck contours? If the frets are too far apart, then stick with the normal neck. If you don't like the chunkiness or shape of the neck, simply find another neck with a different profile you do like. Lots of options out there.

1) Alright, that makes sense, but aren't there such things as conversion necks that are just drop - in replacements? Will a warmoth neck fit in the CIJ Jaguar I have then? The routing for the bridge (if I need to) wouldn't be that major, would it?
2) I liked the fret spacing (which is why I want a longer neck), but it was too wide and fat for my tastes. I like thumbing notes on my low E and it's easier to do with the Jaguar than the Jazzmaster, but when I get closer to the neck the fret spacing is a bit tight, which relates back to 1).

Conversion necks are an option. They make conversion necks that will have the shorter Jaguar scale "24" on a Full Scale body. The Squier Jagmaster (new ones) and the Squier CV Duo Sonic are examples of this. I don't know if there are conversion necks that will take a Short scale body and make it full scale. You will have to check on that. The neck profiles are numerous and you should be able to find a 25.5" neck that you like. Any Strat neck would work. Also, keep in mind that necks made in China and Korea (Squier) have different hardware from Mexico, Japan and USA. You can't drop American tuners in Chinese neck without mods.

[honeyiscool]

Honestly, after having messed around with it some, I wouldn't call the Duo Sonic neck a conversion neck and I wish people would stop calling it such because it's very misleading. It's really just a 21-fret 24" neck. The bridge position to make the Duo Sonic neck work is pretty far from where it would be on a 21-fret 25.5" neck. I mean, just think about it logically speaking, they have the same number of frets except one has a shorter scale. A true conversion neck should have overhang for the 21st fret so that the bridge wouldn't need to be moved much.

[Space_Expert]

Conversion necks are an option. They make conversion necks that will have the shorter Jaguar scale "24" on a Full Scale body. The Squier Jagmaster (new ones) and the Squier CV Duo Sonic are examples of this. I don't know if there are conversion necks that will take a Short scale body and make it full scale. You will have to check on that. The neck profiles are numerous and you should be able to find a 25.5" neck that you like. Any Strat neck would work. Also, keep in mind that necks made in China and Korea (Squier) have different hardware from Mexico, Japan and USA. You can't drop American tuners in Chinese neck without mods.

I know Warmoth makes 24.75 and 28.5 conversion necks, so I don't see what the problem with making a 25.5 conversion neck would be. I could probably just email them and ask. I don't think the body on a Jaguar is really that significantly smaller than the Jazzmaster body; the few comparison drawings I've seen just show that there's more of an upper horn (slight) and more of a bottom hump near the strap buttom (again, slight). Width wise, my CIJ Jag's neck feels like the width on a '52 tele reissue or the width of my Schecter C-1.

[honeyiscool]

Conversion necks aren't hard to make. I think the problem is probably with making one that looks normal and not like a conversion neck.

To have a 25.5" scale neck on a Jaguar with no bridge mods, let's do some quick calculations.

The 22nd fret is 17.265" from the nut, so 6.735" from the bridge. On a 25.5" scale, the closest fret to that would be at the 23rd fret, which is 18.746" from the nut, or 6.754" from the bridge. So you would need at least 23 frets to make it work, but given how much room a Jag fretboard seems to have after the 22nd fret, that would probably end up with a lot of fingerboard left. So really, you'd probably be best off with a 24-fret fretboard, maybe with a slight bit of overhang, but do Jag users respond well to that kind of thing, a 24-fret neck?

It'd be an interesting project for sure.

[brianjdc]

i wouldnt consider them mallcore, was just amused by a term i forgot. and emo cant be the catch all because emo started in the 80's with bands like rites of spring, just all the youngins think it started with dashboard. id call thrice post hardcore if anything

[mickie08]

Conversion necks aren't hard to make. I think the problem is probably with making one that looks normal and not like a conversion neck.

To have a 25.5" scale neck on a Jaguar with no bridge mods, let's do some quick calculations.

The 22nd fret is 17.265" from the nut, so 6.735" from the bridge. On a 25.5" scale, the closest fret to that would be at the 23rd fret, which is 18.746" from the nut, or 6.754" from the bridge. So you would need at least 23 frets to make it work, but given how much room a Jag fretboard seems to have after the 22nd fret, that would probably end up with a lot of fingerboard left. So really, you'd probably be best off with a 24-fret fretboard, maybe with a slight bit of overhang, but do Jag users respond well to that kind of thing, a 24-fret neck?

It'd be an interesting project for sure.

It's all marketing/demand. There are alot fewer short scale options to buy so they came up with a short scale conversion to make it easier to put together a shortscale. It probably also allowed Fender to save some money verses desinging, etc with a true shortscale neck. At least I would guess that.

As far as the opposite, you can find almost anything you want in a full scale style guitar so there is not as large of a market for upsizing shortscale. Also, most shortscales are pretty small guitars (Jaguar excluded) and would probably neck heavy/dive happy wiht a 25.5 scale.