Tone of 24" scale vs. 24 3/4 vs. 25 1/2 ?

[Mages]

I happen to think it does. Also changes when you fret chords and notes. I'd argue that each note played on each string has a different tone.

+1 you can play the exact some note or pitch on many places on the guitar but they all sound different.

but that's different to what i said. you are saying something like playing a note on the 5th fret of the d string sounds different to playing the 10th fret of the a string even though it's the same pitch. i agree. but that's not what i was saying. so, try playing at the 5th fret on the d string on your guitar, then put a capo on the first fret and play the 5th fret on the d string. you've effectively changed the scale length, but is there a noticable difference in tone?

ok, placing a capo on your guitar is technically "changing the scale length", I suppose, but it's not comparable to a shorter scale because it shifts the tuning up a half-step every time you move the capo down a fret. you have to adjust the tuning so it's back to standard, then you've changed the scale length.

[stewart]

[johnniespring]

+1 you can play the exact some note or pitch on many places on the guitar but they all sound different.

but that's different to what i said. you are saying something like playing a note on the 5th fret of the d string sounds different to playing the 10th fret of the a string even though it's the same pitch. i agree. but that's not what i was saying. so, try playing at the 5th fret on the d string on your guitar, then put a capo on the first fret and play the 5th fret on the d string. you've effectively changed the scale length, but is there a noticable difference in tone?

ok, placing a capo on your guitar is technically "changing the scale length", I suppose, but it's not comparable to a shorter scale because it shifts the tuning up a half-step every time you move the capo down a fret. you have to adjust the tuning so it's back to standard, then you've changed the scale length.

True. But for finding out if it effects the tone then doing what i suggested would work and make it easier to compare. It's not eactly the same cos a capo is not a nut. However, when playing a fretted string i do not believe that there would be a noticeable difference. There are so many myths about guitar tone, sustain, etc. Like the people who go on and on about bone nuts or brass nuts making a huge difference to the tone/sound compared with plastic nuts. I accept that they may do for open strings. i don't belive that they do for distorted bar chords. Or the people going on about body weight or density being the most important thing for sustain.

[Mages]

yeah but the whole thing that effects the tone is the tension. so the tuning is going to make a difference, because standard tuning in different scales is going to have different tension.

shorter scale = lower tension = deeper tone.

reduced tension on the string lets it move more freely creating a deeper tone. this is how strings work to create sound. the strings moving back and forth create soundwaves, and in electric guitar induce AC voltage in a guitar pickup. if they can move more freely they can physically create lower overtones of the fundamental frequency the string is tuned to.

also, I just found this completely awesome video on the steinberger site. he mentions some things on this subject while he's demonstrating their built in capo: http://www.steinberger.com/files/TranscaleConcept.wmv

[glimmertwins]

I tend to think scale has minimal tonal implications compared to the myriad of other options available(string composition/guage, pickups, amps, pedals, the player). That being said, I think pickup placement probably has a huge role in our perception of these tonal qualities as well. Your pickups are grabbing very specific harmonics from underneath the string so obviously when you move those every so slightly according to scale, you'll be hearing different frequencies. I doubt Fender for instance really cared to have the pickups sit under the exact same nodes for their jaguar and jazzmaster models for instance.

[mongoose69]

What I can add to the discussion is this: I've had the opportunity to play Fender Jaguars with many different replacement pickups (vintage, new, single-coil and humbucker) and while they all sounded somewhat different, they all sounded like JAGUARS!

Note that I am referring only to models with standard vibratos, not hardtails.

There has to be something to it.

[JJLipton]

I tend to think scale has minimal tonal implications compared to the myriad of other options available(string composition/guage, pickups, amps, pedals, the player). That being said, I think pickup placement probably has a huge role in our perception of these tonal qualities as well. Your pickups are grabbing very specific harmonics from underneath the string so obviously when you move those every so slightly according to scale, you'll be hearing different frequencies. I doubt Fender for instance really cared to have the pickups sit under the exact same nodes for their jaguar and jazzmaster models for instance.

I remember reading about this somewhere...although i don't remember the exact site...was it ed roman? Apparently 24 fret guitars are technically the best for harmonically pure sound, which makes sense.

[mongoose69]

I remember reading about this somewhere...although i don't remember the exact site...was it ed roman? Apparently 24 fret guitars are technically the best for harmonically pure sound, which makes sense.[/quote]

Do keep in mind that the general concensus is that Ed Roman is an enormous douchebag!

[johnniespring]

I remember reading about this somewhere...although i don't remember the exact site...was it ed roman? Apparently 24 fret guitars are technically the best for harmonically pure sound, which makes sense.

Do keep in mind that the general concensus is that Ed Roman is an enormous douchebag![/quote]

but on this he's bound to be right, cos a 24 fret neck will definitely make the sound better than a 22 fret neck cos it has two more frets. somehow it sounds more pure. i have three mustangs. one has a stock 21 fret neck, one has a stock 22 fret neck and the other has an after market 24 fret neck. i've a/b/c compared them and at every fret the 22 sounds better than the 21 but the 24 sounds better than the 24. the sound is purer as the fret numbers increase. i was really surprised at the difference. i've even paid a luthier $1048.73 to make a 27 fret neck and modify a fourth stang body cos i'm sure that the tone will be even more pure and dark.

none of the above is true.

[Pens]

Here's some full on science using different scale lengths, guages and specrum analysis to see the measurable differences. not full proof but some interesting objective info:

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/Techa ... frame.html

This is a great article on the subject.

The scale length voice is clearly made up of peaks of harmonic intensity that will vary with the length chosen. Remember that the lack of intensity at particular peaks also colors the voice of a particular scale.

So scale affects the "harmonic EQ" of the note. All I know is that it makes it sound really percussive and responsive to my heavy handed playing versus the brightness of a 25.5" scale of my hagstrom.

[Fran]

*scene from the next street to where i live*

[hotrodperlmutter]

Here's some full on science using different scale lengths, guages and specrum analysis to see the measurable differences. not full proof but some interesting objective info:

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/Techa ... frame.html

This is a great article on the subject.

lank doesn't wrok for meh.

[samuelcotterall]

I don’t know if it affects tone so much, as there are so many other variables between the guitars I’ve played. However, I find that scale length really affects the type of stuff I play and how I play it.

On 24" necks I tend to play very scratchy riffs. On 24.75" necks I tend to quite deliberate notes and chords like I’m a proper guitarist or something. On 25.5" tend to tune down a bit and use open tunings and pretend I’m in Sonic Youth.

[mongoose69]

So scale affects the "harmonic EQ" of the note. All I know is that it makes it sound really percussive and responsive to my heavy handed playing versus the brightness of a 25.5" scale of my hagstrom.

Having used my Jaguars extensively as of late (I've become a 24" scale convert almost entirely) I have indeed found that percussive quality you mentioned is the thing. Maybe it has to do with string tension as well?

I'm no bionic-hearing tone freak like Eric Johnson (can't tell one 9-volt battery from another), but I hear a difference in tone between the scales.

I heard a guy's jag the other day that he had loaede with Jazzmaster pickups. Still sounded like a Jag, just warmer.

[LameDog]

[the post below was my first post here, and now it is 9 months later and I am on a bit of a back-track/review of my posts. I got really into this subject of scale length and tone, and posted a lot after April 11 on this thread, trying to get to grips with it. I have not learnt how to keep good ettiquette for these discussion pages, so I went at it like it was an essay, and I suppose I just kept delivering monolouges. If you felt like being hostile to me you could say the postings were possible bordering on flames, which I guess is fair comment. Sorry if I became irritating. I really notice you are all kind to each other as a forum in the way you handle each other, and patient and have not blown me away with any real hostility, thanks,...Is this mellow yellow approach something to do with playing a 24 inch, which makes you a calm lot (unlike the uptight dudes on the Telecaster forum, lol? All that top end makes them highly strung )? So I am penitent, for going on so much, and intend to now (as of Dec 2011) go back through my postings and edit them and shorten and possibly even delete some if it does not destroy the sense of the thread. The problem is that creative thought (if that is what I have been having?) and grappling with new ideas does not follow boxed up rules. I found I needed the impulsivness of being live on the forum (not writing on a word processor in a considered way, and then cutting and pasting it up here) to keep my focus, and the ideas came as they came, rambling on. But now is the time to go back and clean up my dog mess that I left behind. So expect me to try to start editing and summarising these old posts of mine, for the sake of anyone else visiting the forum in the future so it is easier to read for them, and less pagesI ]

Thanks for the link, above, about the science. So the number and type of overtones change with tension and length: the 1st string tuned to standard E on a 25 1/2 inch neck will have more upper overtones than a 1st string at standard E on a 24 5/8th neck? The argument seems to be that the 25 1/2 tension produces about 13 overtones, and the highest of these overtones (not found in the 24 1/2 length) are slightly dischordant and give the note more twang. Is the twang just because the string is more taut? I do not think that tautness of string can be the whole explanation; and will try to say why I think tautness is not the whole explanation in a later post.

So what other tones can you get from your strings apart from the Fender and Gibson lengths? Playing the guitar acoustically, not via an amp, I used a 25 1/2 scale guitar and an electronic tuner with a scale and a needle that moved, I tuned down from the standard tuning of EADGBE by as near as I could calculate to where a 24 5/8 nut would be on the fingeboard. That is either just slightly before, or spot-on 7/8ths of an inch down towards the first fret. So my stings were all about 3/4 of a semitone flat. I marked the place where the needle of the tuner now pointed on the scale. This point should approximate the 24 5/8 position. Tuned to this and then tried tuning down very very slight differences in tuning from there, just one or two steps down on the needle at a time. To me different tensions did have different characteristics. I liked it best when tuned about 6/8th of a semitone down, and that may not be true Gibson...but the notes had a brightness still at that point, while still being mellow. This brightness seemed to be lost with a very small further reduction in pitch. In checking for harshness or mellowness of chords I particularly noticed a difference if the 2nd, 3rd and 4th string were barred at the 7th fret and played together; which is how I learnt to start the song by Cream, "Sunshine of Your Love" which was played on a Gibson by Clapton I think...and you get that original blues feel better at that tension I think. I did try the 25" PRS scale tension, but at the moment it is not really my preferred tone. Finally I tried the Hendrix tuning of a 25 1/2 neck tuned a complete semi-tone down, and this was different again in tone to me. So if you play Hendrix stuff, perhaps tuning down may help give it the right feel, if you have a 25 1/2 scale guitar. But as this is a short scale forum, you are already at about Hendrix's string tension/length ration at 24 inches. If Mr Hendrix’s hands had been smaller would he have prefered a 24 scale guitar? I think in his days as Jimmy James and the Blue Flames he did play a 24 inch.

Please note: for this experiment to work I think you may need a hard tail bridge, or the trem needs to be either locked or set flat against the body. A floating trem may do the following: it seems to mute pick attack and softens upbends due to the "give" in the bridge when the string comes under tension, and if you strum a chord it may be more "mushy" due to the trem vibrating along with the force of the strum, the floating bridge vibrating it can also put a shimmer effect on chords which may meld the overtones together making the tonal differences less clear at each tension setting. String thickness does not seem to make a difference here however; but you may need to start with thicker strings at standard tuning, so the strings do not go too slinky when you tune down.

[SKC Willie]

I understand that scientifically, I bet there is a change.


what I want to know, is if a human ear can detect the changes. EVERYTHING on the guitar will effect the tone in a small bit that we could probably trace down with machines but none of that matters if the change is so subtle that it can't be heard by human ears. In a blind test, I don't think people could tell. I also think you could certainly be tricked by effects and Eq, which in my eyes, means it doesn't matter.

I like short scales for the feel, not the tone.


also, welcome to the board. and you did a job acknowledging that fact that you're digging up an old thread. A+ new guy.

[hotrodperlmutter]

i have never heard mention of 24 5/8" scale.

[LameDog]

Well glad to know someone was listening.

Point taken.

Now how do you play this thing again? Got distracted in experiments. Igor put that down!

[George]

Sounds like a well undertaken experiement. My one criticism is how much of that is relative to the actual timbre of the specific guitar? I'm sure I'd find a difference if I capo'd every fret and retuned to E each time. In the same way a detuned guitar with a flabbier set of strings will produce it's own tones.

The main crux of this thread from what I remember (I'm not reading through it again) is people saying a 24" Fenders are more trebly and plinky, completely disregarding the fact they tend to have Mustang/Jaguar bridge systems and high pot values. Then there's the fact that you have to bump up your string guage to reach some sort of relative tension and compliance to make a comparison with a different scale, which muddies the water. And even then there are massive implications with pickup differences and their position on the guitar, which give very different voicings (though I can see your experiment is acoustic which is a good thing). So how do you set the constant in the experiment? Is it pitch? Tension? String guage? You have to keep at least one strict constant otherwise you're not really testing anything, but each constant has it's own effect on the experiement so all should be tested.

I'm not disputing there's some sort of difference, I just think it's beyond the grasp of most people's experience or means to come to an accurate compartive conclusion. I'd love to see what you come up with, personally, and would be really interested to see a video of what you're doing.

[porterhaus]

Here is an excerpt from an article written by Ralph Novak. This article originally appeared in American Lutherie, #51/ Fall 1997.

Scale Length
When we build an instrument, we pay critical attention to the components that go into it. We manipulate materials and structure for aesthetics, longevity, strength, and tone. Scale length fits directly into these considerations and may dictate some of the parameters. Scale length comes first because the harmonic content of the final tone produced by the instrument begins with the string. Factors such as structure and materials can only act as "filters" to tone; they can't add anything, they only modify input. Therefore, if the harmonic structure is not present in the string tone, it won't exist in the final tone. Woods, bracing, thickness, pickups, and electronics: these are controlling factors. The string is the originating factor, and therefore, parameters that control string harmonic output have utmost bearing on tone.

The familiar example might be the "Strat vs. Les Paul" comparison: as stock instruments they have distinctly different voices. We could put the Les Paul pickups in the Strat and vice-versa, then take the screws out of the Strat neck and glue it in, and break out the Les Paul neck and screw it back in. Voila! The Strat still maintains much of its clear, cutting quality, although a bit "fatter," and the Les Paul still has a round attack and mushy bass, although "thinner." We've discovered that the pickups and construction can't override the tonal effects of scale length. The upper partials present in the harmonic structure of the longer scale Strat string tone give it a cutting clarity that distinguish it from the sweet, round, lower partials that dominate the shorter scale Les Paul string tone.

The tone of an instrument originates with the string, and the primary factor that controls string tone (except for defective strings) is scale length. And since scale length affects tension and structural stresses, it may control other factors of our design, such as dimension and material choices. Therefore, when we get that vision of our ideal tone dancing in our heads, we must begin by selecting the scale length that complements our tonal recipe.





And here is a link to the entire article:

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/Techarticle_frame.html


Plenty of scientific explanations for those that are interested....