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Mages wrote:... remember you are talking about an american made guitar. we pay people a living wage here. we've been spoiled by cheap import guitars. you really can't compare the prices of guitars made in china, korea, indonesia, etc. to the prices of guitars made in USA. it's like you are saying the guys at gibson should be working for $3 a day or something. I mean how much would you charge if you made a guitar? and this is not like a job where you have continuous production, they make the guitars in batches. really I think you gotta give 'em a break, they are doing their best to try to give you an inexpensive american made product.

This is certainly a great point.
However, on the flip side of this is all the super high quality (for the price) Japanese imports. Japan has American-esque wages, yet maintain consistently higher quality for a lower price. That's an interesting paradigm.

Asking how much we would charge for a guitar that we built is a bit of a strawman as well. I can't afford the equipment to streamline production like a factory does; Gibson can pump out a guitar faster and cheaper than a small builder can. They can buy in bulk and automate more of the process, industrialization is on their side
Just look at that video tour of the Schecter plant that someone posted the other day; they're producing both American and imported guitars at good, realistic prices, AND they ensure that even the Asian imports are in good tick when they hit the stores. Gibson could learn a thing or two there.

I really don't think they're doing their best to give an inexpensive American made product... they're doing what they think they can get away with and not a touch more.

othomas2 wrote:Gibson aren't the only ones to be blame for price hiking though. At the end of the day it's business... and unfortunately which ever way you look at it there is always going to be brand snobbery. People will pay for the name regardless.

Absolutely right on both points.

Mages wrote:ok, your complaints are valid but I don't think you can say they are overpriced. remember you are talking about an american made guitar. we pay people a living wage here. we've been spoiled by cheap import guitars. you really can't compare the prices of guitars made in china, korea, indonesia, etc. to the prices of guitars made in USA. it's like you are saying the guys at gibson should be working for $3 a day or something. I mean how much would you charge if you made a guitar? and this is not like a job where you have continuous production, they make the guitars in batches. really I think you gotta give 'em a break, they are doing their best to try to give you an inexpensive american made product.

I don't get this argument. A piece of shit guitar made in the USA is a piece of shit guitar. At a day and age when $220 can buy you a good Squier Standard that leaves very little wanting, any guitar above that price point should nail the things that matter.

It's not like CNC routers that cut the bodies at Gibson deserve living wages. Given that the humans in this process are essentially only responsible for things like making sure that the frets, fit, and finish are good, if these things aren't up to par, they aren't doing their jobs. Of course, it's not their fault in the end, it's Gibson's fault for not having processes that result in good guitars being made at a cheap price.

I mean, how much are these guys making at the Gibson plant anyway? $15 an hour? $20 an hour? $25 an hour? Hell, let's say it's $25 an hour. Nobody would complain if the guitars cost $75 more if it meant that they were near perfect out of the box. That's at least three hours worth of somebody's wages. Put one hour of some good American worker's time into making sure that each instrument is good, and charge $75 more. Nobody would complain about that.

A guitar that costs more than $200 that isn't at least as good as a Squier Standard is overpriced, end of story.

Which Guitar Center was it, the one on Druid Hills or Cobb Parkway?

Joey wrote:Which Guitar Center was it, the one on Druid Hills or Cobb Parkway?

North Druid Hills. I live off the next exit north of there so I usually always go to that one.

Mages wrote:... remember you are talking about an american made guitar. we pay people a living wage here. we've been spoiled by cheap import guitars. you really can't compare the prices of guitars made in china, korea, indonesia, etc. to the prices of guitars made in USA. it's like you are saying the guys at gibson should be working for $3 a day or something. I mean how much would you charge if you made a guitar? and this is not like a job where you have continuous production, they make the guitars in batches. really I think you gotta give 'em a break, they are doing their best to try to give you an inexpensive american made product.

I don't give them a break. I think that turning out continuously defective products isn't cool. Is the mindset of the workers A.(I'm not being paid enough to make this guitar well and ensure that it meets a reasonable standard of quality) or B.( Hey, I'm being paid a reasonable amount of money for a low labor intensive job, but because the corporation I work for doesn't place any value on the quality of the product I'm building, why should I? If they're not going to stop me from just soaking shit in glue, hitting it with a hammer and then send it down the assembly line without a second look, then why should I put in any more than the least amount of effort tolerated?)
I think the latter is the train of thought in the factories, and is mirrored and added to ego and hubris on the Corporate level.

Ankhanu wrote:I really don't think they're doing their best to give an inexpensive American made product... they're doing what they think they can get away with and not a touch more.

I 100% agree.

Ankhanu wrote:...However, on the flip side of this is all the super high quality (for the price) Japanese imports. Japan has American-esque wages, yet maintain consistently higher quality for a lower price. That's an interesting paradigm.

Right there I think you've got a case of cultural values influencing production. Not trying to generalize too much, but isn't it pretty much an observed sociological trend that Japanese people put more care and effort into their craftsmanship because they see the effort applied to even the most mundane task as a reflection of self worth? Ok, that was a generalization, and I'm not saying it's universal, but I def think that more value is placed on manufacturing quality control in Japan. I'm not trying to be pro Japan, down with America, I just think that you're money will go farther in regards to base level assembly work in one place over the other.
Can't express thoughts rationally and concisely without sounding like I'm ranting when I'm this tired, just try to imagine me being chill mode ultra while expressing the above thoughts

dudes, seriously, I am not arguing against the poor quality. I'm talking about the PRICE. all I'm saying is, quality issues aside, this is what it costs to make a product like this in the USA. yes, japanese guitars and the american schecters are great. tell me one you can buy brand new out of the box for $540.

Ankhanu wrote:I really don't think they're doing their best to give an inexpensive American made product... they're doing what they think they can get away with and not a touch more.

you're probably right, I dunno. I'm glad someone is experimenting with relatively inexpensive american products though. maybe in the future we will see them work out the kinks in the guitar and/or price. I'm not exactly holding my breath but it would be cool if they did.

honeyiscool wrote:I mean, how much are these guys making at the Gibson plant anyway? $15 an hour? $20 an hour? $25 an hour? Hell, let's say it's $25 an hour. Nobody would complain if the guitars cost $75 more if it meant that they were near perfect out of the box. That's at least three hours worth of somebody's wages. Put one hour of some good American worker's time into making sure that each instrument is good, and charge $75 more. Nobody would complain about that.

yeah I don't know dude. this kind of talk is all speculation though. but it is guaranteed that there's a lot of other people getting a cut other than the workers though.

Mages wrote:

honeyiscool wrote:I mean, how much are these guys making at the Gibson plant anyway? $15 an hour? $20 an hour? $25 an hour? Hell, let's say it's $25 an hour. Nobody would complain if the guitars cost $75 more if it meant that they were near perfect out of the box. That's at least three hours worth of somebody's wages. Put one hour of some good American worker's time into making sure that each instrument is good, and charge $75 more. Nobody would complain about that.

yeah I don't know dude. this kind of talk is all speculation though. but it is guaranteed that there's a lot of other people getting a cut other than the workers though.

Some mom and pop places set the things up right when the get them before the put them on the rack. That is why I like going to Locals Guitars near my place they have a ton of guitars and they are all ready to play, in tune and sorted out when you walk through the door.

Mages wrote:dudes, seriously, I am not arguing against the poor quality. I'm talking about the PRICE. all I'm saying is, quality issues aside, this is what it costs to make a product like this in the USA. yes, japanese guitars and the american schecters are great. tell me one you can buy brand new out of the box for $540.

I have no issues with an American made guitar for $540, but if it takes charging $540 to make a bad product, and a bit more to make a good product, then they should charge more and make that good product.

Mages wrote:dudes, seriously, I am not arguing against the poor quality. I'm talking about the PRICE. all I'm saying is, quality issues aside, this is what it costs to make a product like this in the USA. yes, japanese guitars and the american schecters are great. tell me one you can buy brand new out of the box for $540.

Bought my Fender Aerodyne Telecaster brand new for $499 Canadian, while the Canadian dollar was below the US... so, probably closer to $350USD.
My Schecter Hellcat VI was only marginally more than $540, ($560) and has incredible fit/finish.

The fact is that regardless of what fucking country the guitar is made in, in the $500 and up price range it should feel like a nice guitar. A $540 Gibson that's made in America shouldn't play like a $100 Johnson that's made in china. The Squier vintage modified and classic vibe series, and brands like shecter (as others have mentioned) have really changed the perception of quality vs price for guitars. The squiers are made in china and cost $250 - $350 but they play and sound arguably close to their much more expensive american made counterparts.

I definitely agree that Gibson is putting in the minimal amount of effort to get these things out in stores and it obviously shows in the quality of the guitars. The guitars are shaped, cut, routed, sanded and most likely even painted by machines, not human beings putting in hard labor man hours or elbow grease. The only thing that I can imagine being done by a human being on these guitars is installing the hardware, pickups, tuners, and possibly gluing the fretboard to the neck, and the neck to the body. The assembly line people are doing the minimal amount of work for it to get past the quality control guy who is doing a shitty job, and Gibson corporate doesn't give a fuck, because they know people will still buy their shitty guitars just because they say Gibson on the headstock.

It is certainly possible that the fretboards don't line up properly with the necks because the wood is shrinking between the time it leaves the factory and ends up on the floor of GC, but if that's the case then gibson needs to make sure they're drying the fucking wood enough before installing it on guitars. This is the biggest problem with these guitars to me. A guitar with a shitty neck is unplayable to me. And a brand fucking new $540 guitar should not be unplayable.

right, I totally agree with you about the quality but this is the argument that I don't agree with at all:

Billy3000 wrote:The fact is that regardless of what fucking country the guitar is made in, in the $500 and up price range it should feel like a nice guitar. A $540 Gibson that's made in America shouldn't play like a $100 Johnson that's made in china. The Squier vintage modified and classic vibe series, and brands like shecter (as others have mentioned) have really changed the perception of quality vs price for guitars. The squiers are made in china and cost $250 - $350 but they play and sound arguably close to their much more expensive american made counterparts.

you realize that squier's are cheap not because they're nice guys but because the workers get paid jack shit for making the guitar. squier corporate is probably making the same amount of money on the classic vibes as gibson corporate is making on these guitars. I mean are you saying gibson employees at the nashville factory should work for chinese wage levels? because that's what it sounds like to me when you make the above argument.

Ankhanu wrote:Bought my Fender Aerodyne Telecaster brand new for $499 Canadian, while the Canadian dollar was below the US... so, probably closer to $350USD.
My Schecter Hellcat VI was only marginally more than $540, ($560) and has incredible fit/finish.

ok I'll give you this one. =] I think both of those are kind of deal prices though, both of those guitars go normally for around $600. we will probably see retailers drop the prices on these too, so I don't think it's fair to compare a price drop with an introductory retail price. and if you bought one of these MM for $540 canadian while the canadian dollar was below the US it would be a low price in USD too.

still $500 or $600, whatever it may be, I think it pretty much makes the point. like honeyiscool said, if that's the difference between a good product and a bad product they should just charge the small amount more instead of offering a bad product.

no he is saying the gibson is a FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT MADE BY AMERICAN ROBOTS. NOT AMERICAN WORKERS

robroe wrote:no he is saying the gibson is a FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT MADE BY AMERICAN ROBOTS. NOT AMERICAN WORKERS

This. Rob understands me!

I obviously realize that the squier is cheap because it is made in china, and the workers don't get paid as much. But the fact is that they get paid less and pay that much attention to detail in quality control to put out an amazing guitar for $250-$350. American workers get paid more (the arguement you're making for the higher price) but the quality is noticeably less than these guitars that are available for a for half the price!

Countries have a factor in relative price and quality, directly due to their specific markets and trade!

I think most of the parts of fender guitars are made in china, sometimes soley japan, but the they are usually assembled in their respective countries America, Mexico, Japan. The Fender plant in Mexico, Ensenada, Baja California, its only 65 kilometres south of San Diego! I'm not sure about Gibson though. Mainly because they are shit. They need to move out of America and expand.

You know how many people from rural China moved to the cities last year? 300,000,000.

China has a massive potential worforce that manufacturer THE BEST QUALITY products out there, and the fact Gibson havn't noticed this is madness.

Same with California. Its a fucking State. ''Were California an independent country, its gross domestic product would be ranked between eighth and eleventh in the world''-Wikipedia.org

robroe wrote:no he is saying the gibson is a FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT MADE BY AMERICAN ROBOTS.

robroe wrote:no he is saying the gibson is a FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT MADE BY AMERICAN ROBOTS. NOT AMERICAN WORKERS

TRUTH AS FUCK!!!


I'm not saying gibson employees should be paid chinese level wages, pay them what they're getting paid now but say "hey, uh, y'know how we're paying you a decent wage to make guitars? Yeah? Well uh, how about you stop reading magazines and driving hobby trains into your asshole and spend maybe 6 minutes on putting this fucking guitar together right."

Mages wrote:

robroe wrote:no he is saying the gibson is a FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT MADE BY AMERICAN ROBOTS.

► Show Spoiler

That's an Austrian robot...

Arnold is as much of an American as anyone.

Anyway, yeah, exactly what Billy said. It's clear that American workers haven't touched the guitar enough, it's just been some machine-made parts thrown together with minimal man-hours put in.

honeyiscool wrote:Arnold is as much of an American as anyone.

Anyway, yeah, exactly what Billy said. It's clear that American workers haven't touched the guitar enough, it's just been some machine-made parts thrown together with minimal man-hours put in.

Is a robot arm constructed in Taiwan, used in a Detroit motor plant an American robot arm?

Hmm, with that in mind... are these really American made guitars??

Yeah but ultimately it was probably someone in America who created the blueprints.