ShortScale.org

yeah, i'd put a GFS dream180 in the neck.

These are cool, and I'd play one, but it needs better colors.

hotrodperlmutter wrote:

dots wrote:

endsjustifymeans wrote:Would it have killed them to call it a toronado since that what it is?

toronado's were 24.75", and had vol/ton for each pickup, so it's not technically the same.

right, but jagmasters, mustangs, and duos have been released in multiple scales, so ima say the aesthetics are still what lead me to my assessment.

damienblair17 wrote:New plan. Get a Blacktop Jazzmaster first. That hasn't changed. But then get one of these P90 Jaguars and Cut the 'guard for a bridge humbucker and I'm SET.

Considering you'd have to do some body routing too, wouldn't you just rather get a PAF style soapbar?



DiMarzio has several humbuckers in soapbar form and they're only like $65 a piece.

dots wrote:

hotrodperlmutter wrote:

dots wrote:

toronado's were 24.75", and had vol/ton for each pickup, so it's not technically the same.

right, but jagmasters, mustangs, and duos have been released in multiple scales, so ima say the aesthetics are still what lead me to my assessment.

plus, the controls and hardware are even LESS jaguar than they are toronado.

dots wrote:

dots wrote:

hotrodperlmutter wrote: toronado's were 24.75", and had vol/ton for each pickup, so it's not technically the same.

right, but jagmasters, mustangs, and duos have been released in multiple scales, so ima say the aesthetics are still what lead me to my assessment.

plus, the controls and hardware are even LESS jaguar than they are toronado.

none of the above guitars you mentioned shed any of their original pickup/switching/control configurations, i.e. immediate aesthetics (except the pawn shop mustang, which isn't really a mustang aside from scale/body shape). the jagmaster always had a jazzmaster style pickguard, humbuckers, 3 way switch with v/t, strat trem and no chrome. the mustangs always had phase switches, two single coils, single v/t, stang trem, chrome and 24". RI duo's never got trems, adjust-o-matics, humbuckers, chrome or a scale they didn't come in (ok ok, 22.7", but that's damn close).

the toronado was always hardtailed (either via AOM, or toro six saddle), and always had a les paul pickup/switching configuration. those two things never changed across any of the versions. i'd say if you just can't call it a jaguar for some odd reason, you can acknowledge that it's a hybrid (25%/75%) of the MIK/USA toronado and the blacktop jag, but it's more jaguar than any toronado ever was.

it's not a toronado because it isn't 24.75", doesn't have vol/tone for each pickup, not to mention that it says JAGUAR right on the fucking headstock.

toronado's were nice guitars, but they got ousted because they didn't sell. the jaguar name sells, and i don't think they're ruining it by offering different incarnations.

honeyiscool wrote:

damienblair17 wrote:New plan. Get a Blacktop Jazzmaster first. That hasn't changed. But then get one of these P90 Jaguars and Cut the 'guard for a bridge humbucker and I'm SET.

Considering you'd have to do some body routing too, wouldn't you just rather get a PAF style soapbar?



DiMarzio has several humbuckers in soapbar form and they're only like $65 a piece.

Details details (but you're probably right)

hotrodperlmutter wrote:

dots wrote:

dots wrote: right, but jagmasters, mustangs, and duos have been released in multiple scales, so ima say the aesthetics are still what lead me to my assessment.

plus, the controls and hardware are even LESS jaguar than they are toronado.

none of the above guitars you mentioned shed any of their original pickup/switching/control configurations, i.e. immediate aesthetics (except the pawn shop mustang, which isn't really a mustang aside from scale/body shape). the jagmaster always had a jazzmaster style pickguard, humbuckers, 3 way switch with v/t, strat trem and no chrome. the mustangs always had phase switches, two single coils, single v/t, stang trem, chrome and 24". RI duo's never got trems, adjust-o-matics, humbuckers, chrome or a scale they didn't come in (ok ok, 22.7", but that's damn close).

the toronado was always hardtailed (either via AOM, or toro six saddle), and always had a les paul pickup/switching configuration. those two things never changed across any of the versions. i'd say if you just can't call it a jaguar for some odd reason, you can acknowledge that it's a hybrid (25%/75%) of the MIK/USA toronado and the blacktop jag, but it's more jaguar than any toronado ever was.

it's not a toronado because it isn't 24.75", doesn't have vol/tone for each pickup, not to mention that it says JAGUAR right on the fucking headstock.

toronado's were nice guitars, but they got ousted because they didn't sell. the jaguar name sells, and i don't think they're ruining it by offering different incarnations.

duos have been 22.5, 22.7, and 24" scales, and i'm not sure why you are listing all the hardware they haven't had since all i brought up was their scale length.

aside from artist model releases, jags always had two circuits and shitloads of chrome on modest sized pickguards. . . until now apparently. i remember being puzzled by the naming on a jagmaster since the only thing it shared with the jaguar and not the jazzmaster was the scale. once the 25.5" models were released, it was pretty much a nonexistent comparison. then again, fender aptly didn't name those jaguars, innit.

you're applying a pretty inconsistent standard. . . changing one or two aspects of one guitar disqualifies it from one name, whereas removing the majority of the hallmark features of another is irrelevant because fender knows how to apply a decal? i do understand it's about marketing and name recognition. my complaint is less about "ruining" jaguars than it is about diluting what makes these icons what they are. believe me, i lose no sleep over this, and i don't have nightmares about a tele being rebranded a jag someday. but i will always point out when something doesn't make sense to me beyond the dollar its trying to raise.

Fender is terrible and inconsistent about their naming conventions.

To me, Blacktop Jag isn't a "jag", any more than a Pawnshop Mustang is a "mustang". With the Mustang, you have the cyclone, the musicmaster, the duo, the bronco, and finally the Mustang. There is no reason why a Musicmaster isn't considered a Mustang any more than the Pawnshop is. Same body style, same pickguard. Back then they liked coming up with different names.

They got creative calling a Jazzmaster with a shorter scale and some more chrome a Jaguar. There's really no reason why they didn't just call it some variant of the Jazzmaster. This, is a "blacktop jaguar", which is defined as a Jag body shape, 24" scale, hybrid Jazz/Jaguar pickguard, no Rhythm and a stoptail. I can deal with that.

The Toro was a basically a "Gibson Jaguar". The control scheme was undeniably Gibson style, along with the same bridge, scale, and pickups as a Gibson.

The Blacktop really isn't, its more of a hybrid between a Jazz and a Jag with a fixed tail bridge.

I suppose it's like having 20 kids, after a while you just start calling them all "Bob" because you cann't keep track of their names.

i see where you're going with that, and i've always seen the gibson comparison on toros, before i even owned one. still ain't seeing this guitar as having more in common with a jag than it does a toronado, though. it's not like i'm getting all "amber switch tip" or "the moved the trem OH NOES" about this. i just look at these guitars:


and find more shared features between two of them than i do the other. already done said i'd play the hell out of this model anyway. . .

They have set neck guitars with double humbuckers that they call Teles because of the body and headstock.



They have SSS Teles with five-way switches that sound nothing like the Telecaster:



At some point in their history, Fender has made Strats and Teles of different scales, different woods, different profiles, different frets, I can find you two Strats that have not a single feature in common.

The Blacktop Jag has the Jaguar body and the Jaguar neck. I think that makes it a Jaguar. The variations in the various Jaguar models right now are far less than the variations in the current Strat or Tele lineup.

dots wrote:i see where you're going with that, and i've always seen the gibson comparison on toros, before i even owned one. still ain't seeing this guitar as having more in common with a jag than it does a toronado, though. it's not like i'm getting all "amber switch tip" or "the moved the trem OH NOES" about this. i just look at these guitars:

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and find more shared features between two of them than i do the other. already done said i'd play the hell out of this model anyway. . .

Ask anyone who doesn't play guitar which of these looks different, they'll single out the Toronado every time.

damienblair17 wrote:Details details (but you're probably right)

Check out DiMarzio's lineup of soapbars:

http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/soap-bar

Other than their one P-90 replica, the rest are all humbuckers in soapbar format. Among the Virtual P90, Tone Zone P90, Super Distortion, and DLX Plus, you should have a tone you like. You can also drop a minihumbucker in there w/ a mounting ring.

Of all the "non-standard" Jags, I think I like this one the best - at least aesthetically. I'll definitely try to have a go with one at NAMM.

needs 7.25ri neck
needs trem

aside from that i love this guitar

I think this might work as a hardtail, but I have to admit that it's past time for Fender or Squier to make a low-cost Jaguar with a proper vibrato on it.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say I'm grateful that Fender is finally doing more guitars hardtail. For years it's like they slapped a strat trem on fucking everything, and I hate those things.

Pens wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain here and say I'm grateful that Fender is finally doing more guitars hardtail. For years it's like they slapped a strat trem on fucking everything, and I hate those things.

don't get me wrong.. i prefer a hard tale to a strat trem on absolutly everything..
the bridge that is on the squier JM/jaguar as much as i hate it, at least it isn't a strat trem.. those should have had TOMs with a stop tale.

No, fuck that.

Strat Trem + No Strat Jack >>> No Strat Trem (and a retarded bridge at that) + Strat Jack

Jagmaster >>>>>> VM Jag

All they needed to do was to start putting Jaguar necks on Jagmasters again. That's all they needed to do.

Bullshit. Having a Strat trem means they carved a massive chunk of wood out of the body that you can't easily cover up. No matter how stupid those Squier Jag bridges are, at least they are infinitely easier to replace with anything else since they don't do much carving in the body compared to a strat trem.

The Jagmaster fucking sucks. The VM Jag is infinitely better than that.