ShortScale.org

I think body and neck construction material having something to do with how an electric guitar sounds has more to do with how little or how much their masses and volumes impede string vibration which is THEN transmitted trough the pickups.

Imagine you had a guitar with a neck and body made out of glass and one made out of concrete. Otherwise identical. Would you be surprised if they sounded different? Same thing with different woods, only less dramatic.

laterallateral wrote:I think body and neck construction material having something to do with how an electric guitar sounds has more to do with how little or how much their densities and volumes impede string vibration which is THEN transmitted trough the pickups.

Imagine you had a guitar with a neck and body made out of glass and one made out of concrete. Otherwise identical. Would you be surprised if they sounded different? Same thing with different woods, only less so.

Thing is I honestly don't know..

The strings are attached to bits of metal stuck into the wood, how does that impede string vibration at all? O.k so perhaps the string winders and bridge vibrate a little, but I don't see that the variation between woods could be enough to effect what the pickups get...I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, I'm just saying if it does I don't understand how.

Stuart wrote:

laterallateral wrote:I think body and neck construction material having something to do with how an electric guitar sounds has more to do with how little or how much their densities and volumes impede string vibration which is THEN transmitted trough the pickups.

Imagine you had a guitar with a neck and body made out of glass and one made out of concrete. Otherwise identical. Would you be surprised if they sounded different? Same thing with different woods, only less so.

Thing is I honestly don't know..

The strings are attached to bits of metal stuck into the wood, how does that impede string vibration at all? O.k so perhaps the string winders and bridge vibrate a little, but I don't see that the variation between woods could be enough to effect what the pickups get...I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, I'm just saying if it does I don't understand how.

Do you feel there's legitimacy to the claim that most set neck guitars will sustain longer than most bolt-ons? Does that idea make sense to you?

it certainly has some intuitive appeal (it's either that or simply received wisdom)

but again, as long as either type of neck is attached fairly stably, how can it?

Think micro.

Is a continuous piece of wood (neck-trough, billions of atomic connections) more mechanically fastened than four bolts?
The relation between the guitar strings and the body is a feedback loop. the strings vibrate and impart their energy into what is keeping them taught by the intermediary of what actually fastens them (nut, bridge, tailpiece, tuners) which is then returning energy into the strings, which excite electro magnets, which convert the energy into an electric waveform. How can whatever you jam into this loop not affect what the pickups pickup?

Again, I really don't think there's question as to whether or not different guitar construction materials and methods yield different results in sound.
I think the question(s) lie in the measure of their significance and how we meter it.

laterallateral wrote:Think micro.

Is a continuous piece of wood (neck-trough, billions of atomic connections) more solidly fastened than four bolts?

Again, I really don't think there's question as to whether or not different guitar construction materials and methods yield different results in sound.
I think the question(s) lie in the measure of their significance and how we meter it.

but why does that matter? As long as the two ends of the string are anchored. If the neck isn't loose and therefore changing the shape the strings vibrate in.


Also to quobble slightly. Sustain and tone aren't quite the same. If we were to say we are only interested in the first 3 seconds of noise or we are playing with an Ebow or something, because then the messy stuff about how rapidly the sound decays is gone.

I think that any rattle caused by the difference in 'fastnest' (for one of a better term) is going to be imperceptible. And in incase would be reproduce in an exactly similar joint made out of any wood, with any pick guard, with any cavity.

Stuart wrote:but why does that matter?

I'm not saying it necessarily does!

Stuart wrote:Sustain and tone aren't quite the same.

If you allow for the fact that different construction materials/methods will afford variations in the waveform's duration, is it not fair to assume that given the fact that if a finite amount of energy is imparted into the strings, passive components influencing the variable of duration will also cause variations in modulation of said waveform?

wait wait, I am late to the partay but I has the answer!! I just read about this on Bill Lawrence's site:

Bill Lawrence wrote:Eddy currents alter sound and output of a pickup and play an important role in pickup design.

Eddy currents are induced in metals in the vicinity of an AC magnetic field, creating a secondary magnetic field which opposes the inducing magnetic field of the coil. The dimensions, conductivity and permeability of the metal, along with the frequency of the current in the coil, determine the magnitude and phase relation of the eddy currents. An internal short in a pickup coil forms a conductive loop which, also, becomes the source for internal eddy current interference.

Bill Lawrence wrote:Now let me address some possible side effects of shielding. Here again we have to ask the question--

What is their cause?

Changes in tone quality are caused by eddy current interferences while loss of highs are caused by capacitance. Losses of highs due to capacitance are virtually impossible. Only if you use extremely long shielded, high capacitance leads from the pickups to the controls, there may be some loss of treble. On the other hand, eddy current interference can change the tone dramatically. Shielding the cavities with copper or aluminum tape does not cause any eddy currents.

? ? ? ? ?

So, what causes eddy current interference?

? ? ? ? ?

#A. The Tele bridge mount.
#B. The covers and baseplates of the classic humbucker.
#C. Any metal plates below the coils.
#D Metal pick guards for Strats.
#E. In general, all metal parts in the vicinity of the pickups.

The magnitude of eddy currents depends on the thickness of the material, the proximity to the coil and the kind of metal. Copper or aluminum under the pick guard or shielding the cavities will not cause eddy currents, but wrapping any conductive tape around the coil will. Aluminum will cause higher eddies than copper, steel or brass, but alloys like nickel-silver or 300 stainless steels cause virtually no eddies.

Are eddies good or bad?

I compare eddies with salt in a soup. One of the sweetest sounding Strats I ever played was a ‘65 Strat which had a .025� stamped sheet aluminum plate as shielding under the pickquard. No loss of highs at all, but the higher midrange was slightly reduced. I use eddy current interferences to fine-tune pickups, but interpreting the specs of a pickup is as complicated than reading an EKG!

I think Les Paul the dude might have been against the maple caps actually, probably Ted Mccarty's idea.
LP said fairly late on that Gibson were putting maple caps on the wrong one, and that the more expensive Custom should have the gold finish and fancy laminate cap... because the laminate cap was elegant and gold looks rich, expensive...
He also rarely used LPs with a maple cap himself, opting for the Customs and ensuing Personal/Recording models (all mahogany).

hotrodperlmutter wrote: AND I CAN'T WRITE TO LES PAUL BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE ADDRESS TO HEAVEN YOU FUCKING JERK.

100% AWESOME.

Mages wrote:wait wait, I am late to the partay but I has the answer!! I just read about this on Bill Lawrence's site:

Bill Lawrence wrote:Eddy currents alter sound and output of a pickup and play an important role in pickup design.

Eddy currents are induced in metals in the vicinity of an AC magnetic field, creating a secondary magnetic field which opposes the inducing magnetic field of the coil. The dimensions, conductivity and permeability of the metal, along with the frequency of the current in the coil, determine the magnitude and phase relation of the eddy currents. An internal short in a pickup coil forms a conductive loop which, also, becomes the source for internal eddy current interference.

Bill Lawrence wrote:Now let me address some possible side effects of shielding. Here again we have to ask the question--

What is their cause?

Changes in tone quality are caused by eddy current interferences while loss of highs are caused by capacitance. Losses of highs due to capacitance are virtually impossible. Only if you use extremely long shielded, high capacitance leads from the pickups to the controls, there may be some loss of treble. On the other hand, eddy current interference can change the tone dramatically. Shielding the cavities with copper or aluminum tape does not cause any eddy currents.

? ? ? ? ?

So, what causes eddy current interference?

? ? ? ? ?

#A. The Tele bridge mount.
#B. The covers and baseplates of the classic humbucker.
#C. Any metal plates below the coils.
#D Metal pick guards for Strats.
#E. In general, all metal parts in the vicinity of the pickups.

The magnitude of eddy currents depends on the thickness of the material, the proximity to the coil and the kind of metal. Copper or aluminum under the pick guard or shielding the cavities will not cause eddy currents, but wrapping any conductive tape around the coil will. Aluminum will cause higher eddies than copper, steel or brass, but alloys like nickel-silver or 300 stainless steels cause virtually no eddies.

Are eddies good or bad?

I compare eddies with salt in a soup. One of the sweetest sounding Strats I ever played was a ‘65 Strat which had a .025� stamped sheet aluminum plate as shielding under the pickquard. No loss of highs at all, but the higher midrange was slightly reduced. I use eddy current interferences to fine-tune pickups, but interpreting the specs of a pickup is as complicated than reading an EKG!

Very interesting. I know Eddy Current is used in magnetic braking mechanisms. The article you quoted doesn't go into how eddy current might affect pickup efficiency but from what I can dig up about it, it would be resistive with the surplus energy being expended as heat. This is completely the opposite of what I thought the metal pickguard was doing (accentuating high frequencies).

I think this also applies to Jaguar Claws.

paul_ wrote:I think Les Paul the dude might have been against the maple caps actually, probably Ted Mccarty's idea.
LP said fairly late on that Gibson were putting maple caps on the wrong one, and that the more expensive Custom should have the gold finish and fancy laminate cap... because the laminate cap was elegant and gold looks rich, expensive...
He also rarely used LPs with a maple cap himself, opting for the Customs and ensuing Personal/Recording models (all mahogany).

Les actually wanted the whole guitar made from maple but it was too heavy so he settled on a mahogany/maple cap compromise IIRC.

There' a shit ton of info on mylespaul.com/forums/

hotrodperlmutter wrote: AND I CAN'T WRITE TO LES PAUL BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE ADDRESS TO HEAVEN YOU FUCKING JERK.

Interesting that you came to the conclusion that i am a jerk, how did you reach this decision?

+1 on the test and +1 on the differences will be marginal.