Blacktop Jaguar 90

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:34 am

I always thought that a guitar should be judged by how good it is stock, first, before you consider how easily you can make it into something it's not.

And is it really that easy to replace? Most people don't really have the tools to get rid of two studs, drill new stuff, etc., and from the modding threads I've seen, not many people actually do this and many people complain that they botched this job (but it looks fine with the pickguard). Most people are stuck with the guitar as it is.

I'm just saying, Strat bridge is a pretty good bridge, whereas the Jag/Jazz VM bridge is a bad bridge. End of story for me.

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:26 pm

dots wrote:
hotrodperlmutter wrote:
dots wrote: plus, the controls and hardware are even LESS jaguar than they are toronado.

► Show Spoiler
none of the above guitars you mentioned shed any of their original pickup/switching/control configurations, i.e. immediate aesthetics (except the pawn shop mustang, which isn't really a mustang aside from scale/body shape). the jagmaster always had a jazzmaster style pickguard, humbuckers, 3 way switch with v/t, strat trem and no chrome. the mustangs always had phase switches, two single coils, single v/t, stang trem, chrome and 24". RI duo's never got trems, adjust-o-matics, humbuckers, chrome or a scale they didn't come in (ok ok, 22.7", but that's damn close).

the toronado was always hardtailed (either via AOM, or toro six saddle), and always had a les paul pickup/switching configuration. those two things never changed across any of the versions. i'd say if you just can't call it a jaguar for some odd reason, you can acknowledge that it's a hybrid (25%/75%) of the MIK/USA toronado and the blacktop jag, but it's more jaguar than any toronado ever was.

it's not a toronado because it isn't 24.75", doesn't have vol/tone for each pickup, not to mention that it says JAGUAR right on the fucking headstock.

toronado's were nice guitars, but they got ousted because they didn't sell. the jaguar name sells, and i don't think they're ruining it by offering different incarnations.
duos have been 22.5, 22.7, and 24" scales, and i'm not sure why you are listing all the hardware they haven't had since all i brought up was their scale length.

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:25 pm

Okay, think of it this way: Strat bridge fucking sucks. VM bridge fucking sucks.

Now, that being equal, which one is easier to replace? The one that carves half the fucking body up, or the one that doesn't?

To be honest, aside from looking weird, the VM bridge isn't that bad, at least not any worse than a strat bridge, but then I only played on one for a bit at a GC upside down. Seemed to be a pretty basic bridge.

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:50 pm

strat bridge or trem?

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:09 pm

The Strat bridge sucks? What's a good bridge, then?

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:36 pm

Strat trem is what I mean. I assumed by stating "strat bridge" it would be inferred that I was talking about the entire tremolo system used as a bridge on a strat.

A good bridge? The tuneomatic, musicmaster RI bridge, tele bridge, the bigsby, hell just about anything other than a strat bridge.

Ankhanu · Post by **Ankhanu** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:39 pm

Pens wrote:Strat trem is what I mean. I assumed by stating "strat bridge" it would be inferred that I was talking about the entire tremolo system used as a bridge on a strat.

Could be thought to mean a hardtail Strat bridge, which does not suffer from the giant route you dislike and is a snap to replace with something more pleasing... in which case, the VM Jag/Jazz thing is way less convenient in every way.

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:39 pm

strat bridges on tele deluxes rule.

strat trems on strats and jagmasters rule.

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:28 pm

Ankhanu wrote:
Pens wrote:Strat trem is what I mean. I assumed by stating "strat bridge" it would be inferred that I was talking about the entire tremolo system used as a bridge on a strat.
Could be thought to mean a hardtail Strat bridge, which does not suffer from the giant route you dislike and is a snap to replace with something more pleasing... in which case, the VM Jag/Jazz thing is way less convenient in every way.

Agreed, hardtail strat bridges are cool, but since the discussion was about "it's better than Fender putting a Strat trem on every fucking guitar", and then cited the massive amount of routing required to put it in place, I assumed it would be a given that I was talking about the strat trem and not the strat hardtail.

And no, Carl. The strat trem on any guitar fucking sucks. My point was, at least they are finally doing something other than that bridge on certain guitars, for those of us that fucking loath that stupid goddamn bridge.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:30 pm

Strat trem + extra spring + a little screwdriver action = Strat hardtail.

I like that.

mkt3000 · Post by **mkt3000** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:37 pm

honeyiscool wrote:Strat trem + extra spring + a little screwdriver action = Strat hardtail.

I like that.

+block of wood.

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:39 pm

honeyiscool wrote:Strat trem + extra spring + a little screwdriver action = Strat hardtail.

I like that.

It doesn't always work that way. Perhaps I'm just really rough with my guitars, but I've never had a strat trem stay "hardtail" unless I put a fucking block of wood in the back to make sure it couldn't move. I did the tightening thing and extra springs, it still sometimes would move, sometimes completely bending outwards and making me go way flat. I dealt with a few too many of those that did that and I'm done dealing with those pieces of shit.

I'm also pissed at the fact that my Supersonic started snapping strings like fucking mad all of a sudden. In my 15 years of playing, the only guitars I've ever had that constantly had issues with snapping strings have been goddamn strat-trem guitars. That makes three now that have this problem, so fuck it. That bridge is a pile of horsecock.

Point is, I was saying I am happy they are doing things other than bullshit strat trems on guitars for those of us that cannot fucking stand them. I don't wanna sit here and debate the merits of or hear how I am "doing it wrong", the strat trem/bridge is a piece of shit and I hate them. Just like the Jaguar bridge is a piece of shit (shut it, Fran). I don't like them, I just don't, and I'd prefer that they put out more variety in their guitars like they have been.

Rox · Post by **Rox** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:54 pm

Pens wrote:Fender is terrible and inconsistent about their naming conventions.

To me, Blacktop Jag isn't a "jag", any more than a Pawnshop Mustang is a "mustang". With the Mustang, you have the cyclone, the musicmaster, the duo, the bronco, and finally the Mustang. There is no reason why a Musicmaster isn't considered a Mustang any more than the Pawnshop is. Same body style, same pickguard. Back then they liked coming up with different names.

They got creative calling a Jazzmaster with a shorter scale and some more chrome a Jaguar. There's really no reason why they didn't just call it some variant of the Jazzmaster. This, is a "blacktop jaguar", which is defined as a Jag body shape, 24" scale, hybrid Jazz/Jaguar pickguard, no Rhythm and a stoptail. I can deal with that.

The Toro was a basically a "Gibson Jaguar". The control scheme was undeniably Gibson style, along with the same bridge, scale, and pickups as a Gibson.

The Blacktop really isn't, its more of a hybrid between a Jazz and a Jag with a fixed tail bridge.

I suppose it's like having 20 kids, after a while you just start calling them all "Bob" because you cann't keep track of their names.

With Fender it's not about naming the instrument properly it's giving the guitar a name to make it sell.. Shit , look at the new Marauder ... Cool guitar but nothing like the original. The Pawnshop basically a Cyclone in 24 scale with HBs ( as mentioned ) .

"I suppose it's like having 20 kids, after a while you just start calling them all "Bob" because you cann't keep track of their names."

Now that is funny and so true ..

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:25 pm

Pens wrote:And no, Carl. The strat trem on any guitar fucking sucks. My point was, at least they are finally doing something other than that bridge on certain guitars, for those of us that fucking loath that stupid goddamn bridge.

huh. that's weird. i've never had an issue with every strat trem i've ever had, but then again, i use windows.

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:52 pm

I think it's the saddles that are bad on cheap bridges that snaps strings.

This Wilkinson I just installed is smooth as butter, might be the best vibrato I've ever used, objectively speaking:

(Of course, I still like the Mustang vibrato better.)

(And you guys must be a lot stronger than I am, moving fully screwed down Strat bridges.)

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:14 pm

hotrodperlmutter wrote:
Pens wrote:And no, Carl. The strat trem on any guitar fucking sucks. My point was, at least they are finally doing something other than that bridge on certain guitars, for those of us that fucking loath that stupid goddamn bridge.
huh. that's weird. i've never had an issue with every strat trem i've ever had, but then again, i use windows.

Cool story, bro. I fucking hate them and have always had nothing but trouble with them, thus the need for choices out there. But I'm glad you never had any problems with them.

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:24 pm

dude, i am too. and to think, if i had a problem with them... phew, that would be awful!

Pens · Post by **Pens** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:32 pm

honeyiscool wrote: (And you guys must be a lot stronger than I am, moving fully screwed down Strat bridges.)

I can't really explain it either, it shocked me every time it would happen, but when you're in middle of a set and you hear your guitar going flat and you look down and see the bridge sticking up at a 45 deg angle, it doesn't really even matter how it happened, it happened and its ruining your set. I don't trust things that act up like that. I don't want a trem, I never, ever want that bridge to move, so I don't want the bridge to even have the possibility of moving under any circumstance.

Getting a guitar with a strat trem is kinda like being 20 and wishing you could have your foreskin back. You can't, it's gone, nothing you can do will bring it back. That's what strat trems do to perfectly fine guitar bodies.

hotrodperlmutter · Post by **hotrodperlmutter** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:36 pm

why the hell would you want your foreskin back?

honeyiscool · Post by **honeyiscool** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:44 pm

I don't even physically know how it's possible to have what you just described happen. Pens makes the impossible possible.

Then again, I never understood why people need heavy strings on their shortscales when I've played 9s just fine on a Jaguar. Maybe I'm that weak.