AVRI Jaguar Neck question.

[dots]

paul - '03 or '04 i think
gavin - i'm not sure how to answer that. would you feel comfortable paying fender usa prices for a guitar made out of scraps?

Lol

Why would anybody even need to ask this question.

[Gavin]

Lol indeed. I have this funny habit of wanting logical explanations for things rather than just believing that one thing is "better" and therefore worth extra money.

[hotrodperlmutter]

Squier - Classic Vibe Series
Japan - Vista Series
Mexico - Classic Player

watch out, not all vista series were crafted in japan. i believe the vista musicmaster bass and guitar were made in china.

[MMPicker]

If there is some purported "higher quality" aspect that cannot be perceived by the player, in any way, then it is, IMO, quality misspent.
In that case the player would be better served if the extra "quality- enhancement" dollars were spent instead on doing something that actually has a perceptible effect. Like, for example, making the strings not buzz, or the trem arm not flop around. Or making it cheaper.

But wait, they already did all that...

[Justin J]

i've owned 3 different jaguars in the past (soon to be four) and i've managed to keep them all from buzzing and flopping.

[MMPicker]

i've owned 3 different jaguars in the past (soon to be four) and i've managed to keep them all from buzzing and flopping.

Congratulations on your good fortune, but surely you've seen the six zillion other posts, to this forum and others, concerning topics such as "Mustang Bridge", "Mastery Bridge", "buzzstop", "taping tremelo arm to try to keep it in place", "bending tremelo arm to try to keep it in place", "shims", "neck angle" etc. that all clearly indicate that many others do not fully share your good fortune, and in fact have had to take action, and expense, to combat these quality deficiencies.

[Justin J]

my point was that a jaguar can be set up to play perfectly without resorting to any of those methods. look in any thread discussing bridge replacement, buzz stops, etc. and you will find many proponents of the stock configuration. i fail to see how needing a basic set-up can be a quality deficiency.
and those trem arms don't flop around if you snap them into place as was originally intended. that's why the bottom of the bar is tapered.

[MMPicker]

Suggest you tell this to all the guys making the hundreds of posts on these topics. I am not one of them, I just read them all moaning about them and seeking help when they have the problems. Maybe you can straighten them all out, then posting volume here will drop precipitously. BUt FWIW I don't think all these people would agree with you that all they really needed was a setup, so basically they are idiots for making all these aftermarket purchases. My guess is a good number of them would probably say that despite their best efforts at setup their problems persisted so they had to take these additional measures.

[Mo Law-ka]

people just aren't willing to put effort into making things work.
thats all this is.

[Fran]

I've watched this thread, read it, and to be honest i think people get too involved with incidentals.
Play your guitar and if it aint right sell the fucking thing is all i can add.

[taylornutt]

I've watched this thread, read it, and to be honest i think people get too involved with incidentals.
Play your guitar and if it aint right sell the fucking thing is all i can add.

+1 I couldn't agree with you more, Fran. I just wanted to know about a gap in the neck pocket of my guitar and this thread kinda exploded into this vintage vs modern Jag diatribe. I am not against discussion but not exactly what I had in mind.

[dots]

Suggest you tell this to all the guys making the hundreds of posts on these topics. I am not one of them, I just read them all moaning about them and seeking help when they have the problems. Maybe you can straighten them all out, then posting volume here will drop precipitously. BUt FWIW I don't think all these people would agree with you that all they really needed was a setup, so basically they are idiots for making all these aftermarket purchases. My guess is a good number of them would probably say that despite their best efforts at setup their problems persisted so they had to take these additional measures.

i don't give a good god damn whether anybody agrees with fact or not. ever noticed that the people complaining are all new owners? so what if they've played other guitars for 80 years and toured with the dead during the 70's. if they've never owned a jag, they don't know how to set one up. everything from the bridge to the saddles to the trem combines to make it a powerfully unique instrument, and that's before you even get to the electronics and the tonal options therein.

the TRUTH is all a decently built jaguar needs is to be setup properly in order to solve the common complaints. this task is indeed more complicated for the above specified reasons, but it is possible and common to achieve that proper setup without purchasing attachments and replacements for the stock hardware. does that make those who choose these alternatives idiots? no, but that is what they choose over the work necessary to achieve something that many, many jag owners do everyday.

i don't know why you're even arguing about this. clearly, if setting up a jag with stock hardware was impossible, there wouldn't even be a discussion. okay, it's harder. quit acting like it's impossible or torturous. there's just work involved, and die-hards are gonna say the work arounds are unnecessary and indicative of laziness and/or inexperience. since they've owned the guitar longer and have setup their guitars properly without all the do-dads, they're entitled.

[Fran]

Suggest you tell this to all the guys making the hundreds of posts on these topics. I am not one of them, I just read them all moaning about them and seeking help when they have the problems. Maybe you can straighten them all out, then posting volume here will drop precipitously. BUt FWIW I don't think all these people would agree with you that all they really needed was a setup, so basically they are idiots for making all these aftermarket purchases. My guess is a good number of them would probably say that despite their best efforts at setup their problems persisted so they had to take these additional measures.

i don't give a good god damn whether anybody agrees with fact or not. ever noticed that the people complaining are all new owners? so what if they've played other guitars for 80 years and toured with the dead during the 70's. if they've never owned a jag, they don't know how to set one up. everything from the bridge to the saddles to the trem combines to make it a powerfully unique instrument, and that's before you even get to the electronics and the tonal options therein.

the TRUTH is all a decently built jaguar needs is to be setup properly in order to solve the common complaints. this task is indeed more complicated for the above specified reasons, but it is possible and common to achieve that proper setup without purchasing attachments and replacements for the stock hardware. does that make those who choose these alternatives idiots? no, but that is what they choose over the work necessary to achieve something that many, many jag owners do everyday.

i don't know why you're even arguing about this. clearly, if setting up a jag with stock hardware was impossible, there wouldn't even be a discussion. okay, it's harder. quit acting like it's impossible or torturous. there's just work involved, and die-hards are gonna say the work arounds are unnecessary and indicative of laziness and/or inexperience. since they've owned the guitar longer and have setup their guitars properly without all the do-dads, they're entitled.

+1.

Thread over.

[chisa]

I've watched this thread, read it, and to be honest i think people get too involved with incidentals.
Play your guitar and if it aint right sell the fucking thing is all i can add.

+1 I couldn't agree with you more, Fran. I just wanted to know about a gap in the neck pocket of my guitar and this thread kinda exploded into this vintage vs modern Jag diatribe. I am not against discussion but not exactly what I had in mind.

fwiw i think i may be a shim to increase the string brake at the bridge (i.e. you can crank the bridge up a little more to make it a bit more stable) i think this is a pretty common thing to do with jags and jazzys.

[Sublimedo]

people just aren't willing to put effort into making things work.
thats all this is.

[dots]

as for quality in american vs. japanese or other fenders. . . i think it's more complicated than just the name or the origin. it really depends on the model. for the most part, i think japanese instruments are more than decent, they're great, but i tend to have more electronics issues with non-american fenders. this could be totally preferential, but it is my experience that american guitars had better pickups and more solid pots. again, this is just my experience. i can say, however, that if you really have to ask whether veneers, particle board, or other reconstituted wood is on par with a block of real wood, ask yourself this: if a manufacturer is cutting corners in the materials that make up the body, why wouldn't they do it on the wiriing, pickups, and other hardware? "but does it really make a difference?" no. it doesn't. real materials are always inferior to the products people make to emulate them.

[Gavin]

I wasn't talking about particle board, I was talking about different bits of solid wood glued together with a veneer on top to make it look nice. There is no way 99.999% of people (if anyone) would be able to tell the sonic difference and if there was a good paintjob they wouldn't be able to even see the difference, so what. difference. does. it. make? None, except mojo hounds will spew nonsense about how it affects the tone.

[Joey]

I wasn't talking about particle board, I was talking about different bits of solid wood glued together with a veneer on top to make it look nice. There is no way 99.999% of people (if anyone) would be able to tell the sonic difference and if there was a good paintjob they wouldn't be able to even see the difference, so what. difference. does. it. make? None, except mojo hounds will spew nonsense about how it affects the tone.

Of course! So they can justify a $2,000 - $3,000 guitar.

[Earth]

Black Cat Bone wrote:
Just a note on an earlier comment: truss rod should, in my experience, be first resort way before shimming, providing that you are confident with adjusting the truss and bridge in tandem to get that certain 'balance'. If that fails hit the shims but generally unless the the neck heel depth is too small, or there's something funky with the neck pocket, or you are just missmatcing a body and neck, a shim is usually avoidable. Not sure if that's just me but experience has told me to work with what is inately a part of the guitar first even if it means a little more fiddling around with stuff.

There is something to be said for sustain from a greater break over nut and bridge and yes a shim can do this however bridge and truss can often, but not always, achieve this when sorted out. The reverse argument made by some is that you gain 'tone' and sustain by ensuring a tight wood-to-wood joint between body and neck. There is a trick where you undo the neck screws by a half turn, tune to pitch, tighten screws and re-tune to pitch. This pulls the neck and body tight together and I must admit I was impressed with the improvement in sustain at least unplugged. I've always been a bit peed off if I need to stick a bit of fag packet in my guitar to make it work properly.

Dots wrote: i disagree completely. i would shim way before i adjusted the truss rod since it's put there for a completely different reason.

I totally agree, adjusting the truss rod is to get the correct curvature of the neck, not to adjust the neck angle, thats for shimming. I see far to many people jump to adjust truss rods when they dont need it. If your neck curvature is fine but your neck angle and action isn't then adjusting the truss rod isn't the answer, adjusting the shim, hence neck angle, and bridge height is!

I've never had to adjust the truss rod on my Jag or mustang, even after putting odd gauge strings on em (from 56 on the top to 2x17's on the bottom). Granted, I did drop the tuning to a lower open tuning and its not EADGBE or lower equivilent but still, I've never had the need to adjust it.




BTW, The reason US jags are shimmed so much, aside froom neck variation, is because of the mute, this requires extra bridge height to fit it in so the neck angle needs adjusting. CIJ Jags are rarely shimmed more than one business card thick as they have no mute.

as for quality in american vs. japanese or other fenders. . . i think it's more complicated than just the name or the origin. it really depends on the model. for the most part, i think japanese instruments are more than decent, they're great, but i tend to have more electronics issues with non-american fenders. this could be totally preferential, but it is my experience that american guitars had better pickups and more solid pots. again, this is just my experience. i can say, however, that if you really have to ask whether veneers, particle board, or other reconstituted wood is on par with a block of real wood, ask yourself this: if a manufacturer is cutting corners in the materials that make up the body, why wouldn't they do it on the wiriing, pickups, and other hardware? "but does it really make a difference?" no. it doesn't. real materials are always inferior to the products people make to emulate them.

As far as CIJ vs US Jaguars and JM's are concerned, out of the box the US made guitar is far better in sound and aethsetics IMO/IME. About the only equality CIJ and US made Jags and JM's share is the neck and body (and tuners as both use Gotoh/AVRI Fender tuners although the older MIJ used chinese Ping tuners), both tend to be flawlessly made and finished. On CIJ Jags the chrome parts are no where near as nice as on the US counterpart. The US chrome is thicker, nicer looking and less significantly its a slightly different shape than the CIJ chrome plates. The pickups aren't as nice although I quite like CIJ jag pickups they don't sound 100% like the US ones. The Pickups claws on CIJ's are different from actual vintage/AVRI claws too.. The CIJ pots are El Cheapo that wont last as long as a better made pot like either Alpha or CTS, and the wire although pretty standards wire, isn't as nice to work with as the US cloth stuff but I highly doubt it effects anything sound wise. US Jags are shielded very well with copper/brass plates where as the CIJ uses paint which IME isn't quite as effective against interference.
The US jags come with nicer pickguards and actual celluloid pickguards at that if its tort. The CIJ knobs are the wrong size for Jags too. Ther CIJ Jags dont countersink the rhythm and hex plate screws and use the incorrect pickups mounting screws which is ugly IMO. As far as the tremolo is concerned there's not a lot of differences between the two aside from the US one looking nicer and having a better finish, it may operate slightly smoother than the CIJ one and the CIJ trem arm is the wrong size and slightly different in shape than the US one but over all they are both much the same IMO as far as useablity is concerned.

So, its just in my opinion and experience, overall in the stock condition the US Jags are much nicer guitars than the CIJ jags. That said, with some mods and a little work the CIJ Jags can be brought up to the US jags standard both in functionality and aesthetically quite easily. But, after the amount of mods required to do so its not much more expensive to just buy a used AV Jag and may be the better option for those less inclined to mod almost every single part of a CIJ Jag.

BTW, there's over 20 differences between US and CIJ made Jags, its all little things, tiny details, but it all adds up to money if you are trying to correct them/upgrade your guitar. I have a CIJ Jag and I love it, but its been US-ified/heavily upgraded.

I wont be buying CIJ Jags or JM's again, with all the mods I do to them its just not worth it to me when I can just get a used AV for a little more. I'd happily buy CIJ Mustangs and Teles though, no problem....there's less to mod on them to US-ify/upgrade them. On some CIJ Teles and Strats they already come with US Fender pickups installed so this is a bonus IMO, it makes me wonder why the Jags and JM's never had the US made pickups.....



All IMO/IME of course.

[Gavin]

The plates on CIJ jags are made of solid stainless steel, whereas the US ones are chrome plated steel. Chrome gives a shinier finish, but I'm fine with stainless steel since it won't rub off eventually like chrome will.