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honeyiscool wrote:Well I don't believe in guilty pleasures. If it's on the radio, it's catchy and gets stuck in your head, it probably means it has a good melody or a good hook

I have never had a MCR song stuck in my head and the radio station I listen to, does (every once in awhile) play some MCR. I have never liked them and never thought the song writing was any good. And I will defend Miley Cyrus' "Party in the USA" song until I die. That song is pop genius. Whoever wrote is a damn good pop song writer. Also, I did like a couple of FOB songs.


all I'm saying is that I don't think people here are judging them based off the clothes they wear but the fact that their music isn't any good.

honeyiscool wrote:

Ankhanu wrote:Hell, even some tracks on Liz Phair were pretty good... though in a completely different context. But, yeah, by and large she just went *pphhbbttttpppptt*

Half the songs would be pretty good, if, say, Avril Lavigne had sung them (and I actually love Avril). But really, without a great song, you remember what a shit singer Liz Phair is. Hah.

Lol, you are clearly from a different generation than I... Avril? As in Hey Hey I don't like your girlfriend? I have a very different outlook on what makes a good female rock vocalist.

portugalwillie wrote:

honeyiscool wrote:Well I don't believe in guilty pleasures. If it's on the radio, it's catchy and gets stuck in your head, it probably means it has a good melody or a good hook

I have never had a MCR song stuck in my head and the radio station I listen to, does (every once in awhile) play some MCR. I have never liked them and never thought the song writing was any good. And I will defend Miley Cyrus' "Party in the USA" song until I die. That song is pop genius. Whoever wrote is a damn good pop song writer. Also, I did like a couple of FOB songs.


all I'm saying is that I don't think people here are judging them based off the clothes they wear but the fact that their music isn't any good.

Listen to that I'm not ok song and TRY to not get it stuck in your head. I've only just thought of it because of this thread and it's been in my head all day so far...

I've heard that song several times . . .


that came out when I was in middle school and all of my friends turned into emo fan boys. Now, they agree with me, that it isn't good music. I must have heard that song 1000 times and still can't remember a single lyric. Their music just doesn't stick with me.

endsjustifymeans wrote:Lol, you are clearly from a different generation than I... Avril? As in Hey Hey I don't like your girlfriend? I have a very different outlook on what makes a good female rock vocalist.

Aye, you and I are the same generation... and seem to hold similar outlooks here

Her earlier stuff before the Hey Hey I Don't Like Your Girlfriend garbage was still garbage, but, not nearly so bad. She went from pop-punk icon to standard girl band bland... she had some promise of growing up from pop-punk to maybe something credible, but decided to go in the exact direction her songs were anthems against when she started. Delightful irony

I remember hearing that Girlfriend song and being infuriated with how terrible it was and how catchy it was... it wasn't until months later that I found out who sung it.

I like the Girlfriend song much more than her earlier mall punk stuff. It's catchy and fun and semi-anthemic. Sort of a modern version of "I know what boys like".

I used Avril mainly as an example because Liz Phair liked the song "Complicated" and got the same songwriting team to work on the self-titled, so they put together a bunch of songs that made her sound like a mom version of Avril. I think "Complicated" is one of the best pop songs of the last decade, btw. That first album is just a solid pop album, and it sounds fantastic, too. The subsequent album has some good songs but is way over compressed for my tastes, and nothing as irresistible as "Complicated" or "Sk8er Boi," either. Anyway, I don't think of her as a rock vocalist, I think of her as a pop vocalist, a pretty good one at that. "Girlfriend" was a pretty bad song IMO. From the same album, "Hot" was a much better song. I know it's off topic, I love the drum sound on the chorus of that song, it's so relaxed and beautiful. You gotta love a good session drummer really feeling the drums and letting the snares breathe instead of bashing everything Travis Barker style.

honeyiscool wrote:Well I don't believe in guilty pleasures. If it's on the radio, it's catchy and gets stuck in your head, it probably means it has a good melody or a good hook, and that's at least enough to make a song far from bad because there's plenty of music I've heard described as good that have little in the sense of melody or harmony that I'm supposed to "get" but melody is something I do get and it's something I like about music.

I sort of call bullshit on this.

Yes there is skill involved in creating a melody. But not really when you consider how much of a formulaic system almost all of the music we listen to has.
It is all rehashed capitalist bullshit. Writing a meldy in a song with no formulaic structure, strange time signatures, and no voals is hard, it may not be pleasing but it is hard.


Black Eyed Peas have good hooks sure, but not any better then other bands. You hear it on the radio because some bald man in a suit threw 50 grand at a DJ and a bunch of advertisers.

IeromyHero wrote:People aren't saying they don't care for their music. They are saying very negative rude comments. Which is COMPLETLEY different than just saying you don't really care for something.

yeah, it's the internet dude, people say "negative rude comments" all the time. you should probably just get used to it right now.

IeromyHero wrote:I am simply stating that we are all adults here ( at least I think so..I am) and I think it's immature for you to hate on a band.

well thank you for joining the site to be our maturity police.

IeromyHero wrote: Like I said and will say again, you don't like them FINE, move on. That's your opinon. Just like me liking the band is my opinon. I don't need to prove anything to you about them.

nah, this is a discussion forum. the whole point is to share your opinion about different topics. if everyone just clammed up every time they had a contrary opinion it would be a mighty boring site. if you have some reason you think they are good, again please share it with us. that is the whole point of a site like this: to foster discussion.

IeromyHero wrote:It's sad how much people hate on others who have a different opinion. If we agreed on everything and all liked the same thing this world would be a boring place.

and.... thank you for further making my point with these two contradictory statements. you have a different opinion, ok, that's fine. no one is hating on that. but when you just jump in and start saying things with no reasoning to back it up, I think you're the one being immature. no one is going to give your opinion any credence if you're just making assertions about how everyone here is wrong without any reasoning to back up your claims.

Lucamo wrote:Writing a meldy in a song with no formulaic structure, strange time signatures, and no voals is hard, it may not be pleasing but it is hard.

A fair point, but what you've described also sounds terribly contrived and completely unlistenable.

avj wrote:A fair point, but what you've described also sounds terribly contrived and completely unlistenable.

Well bands like the Dismemberment Plan were always good at creating extremely catchy songs in fucked up time sigs, but anyway, that's what they wanna do, I want good melodies in 4/4, I-IV-V chords. It worked for Mozart, it works for me, I don't know what's capitalist or bullshit about it. At this point, hasn't every sensible combination of notes been played? It's all about how you dress up the same old combination of notes to make something new. When it comes to pop music, or any music really, how you package your hooks allows it to shine, and a lot of pop productions excel at that. Given a starting note, there are only 20,736 possible ways to make a five-note hook. Only one of them makes "Toxic" work.

honeyiscool wrote:I used Avril mainly as an example because Liz Phair liked the song "Complicated" and got the same songwriting team to work on the self-titled, so they put together a bunch of songs that made her sound like a mom version of Avril. I think "Complicated" is one of the best pop songs of the last decade, btw. That first album is just a solid pop album, and it sounds fantastic, too. The subsequent album has some good songs but is way over compressed for my tastes, and nothing as irresistible as "Complicated" or "Sk8er Boi," either. Anyway, I don't think of her as a rock vocalist, I think of her as a pop vocalist, a pretty good one at that. "Girlfriend" was a pretty bad song IMO. From the same album, "Hot" was a much better song. I know it's off topic, I love the drum sound on the chorus of that song, it's so relaxed and beautiful. You gotta love a good session drummer really feeling the drums and letting the snares breathe instead of bashing everything Travis Barker style.

This is how old I am... I just had to look up who Travis Barker is.

Citing Liz Phair for anything after Exile in Guyville is will leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. She's not a rock artist any more, she's just more radio processed milk toast. One more face with a team writing her songs and developing her "image". She's part of the factory now.

avj wrote:

Lucamo wrote:Writing a meldy in a song with no formulaic structure, strange time signatures, and no voals is hard, it may not be pleasing but it is hard.

A fair point, but what you've described also sounds terribly contrived and completely unlistenable.

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No I generally agree, but sometimes it just takes work to enjoy music that isen't processed for us.
And How docile is that? We are too lazy to learn new things.

honeyiscool wrote:

avj wrote:A fair point, but what you've described also sounds terribly contrived and completely unlistenable.

Well bands like the Dismemberment Plan were always good at creating extremely catchy songs in fucked up time sigs, but anyway, that's what they wanna do, I want good melodies in 4/4, I-IV-V chords. It worked for Mozart, it works for me, I don't know what's capitalist or bullshit about it. At this point, hasn't every sensible combination of notes been played? It's all about how you dress up the same old combination of notes to make something new. When it comes to pop music, or any music really, how you package your hooks allows it to shine, and a lot of pop productions excel at that. Given a starting note, there are only 20,736 possible ways to make a five-note hook. Only one of them makes "Toxic" work.

Yes yes, but you've completely removed the context in which I said those words and you've ignored what Lucamo described -- one of the key things being "no vo[c]als". I was simply offering my opinion on that very narrow scenario he offered. I also never said anything about capitalism, as this is my first return to this trainwreck of a thread since declaring Shakira more attractive than this Mikey Way fellow.

To speak to your point, I guess Tool would be another great example of a band doesn't fit into traditional cookie-cutter pop music -- but I don't imagine they sit around with a list of pop music conventions and consciously decide to deviate from them; that would pretty much be the definition of contrived. I think when a person first decides to become a songwriter, they should be hyperaware of what they're doing and how they're doing it. After they've found their voice, it becomes a matter of letting their mishmash of influences -- conscious or otherwise -- guide their hand. People don't evolve musically in a vacuum.

I saw Liz Phair's name, so I'll just add again that I love her. I cleaned up the entire Girly Sound collection for my personal enjoyment. Guyville is in my top ten. I also thought Whip-Smart was fantastic, but musically she lost me after that. I've seen recent interviews where she speaks to her awareness of the transformation into a disposable pop princess. I may dislike the music, but she's still got my respect. She's almost twenty years past Guyille, married, and a mother. There will never be another Guyville from her, so I'm just grateful it exists.

Lucamo wrote:

avj wrote:

Lucamo wrote:Writing a meldy in a song with no formulaic structure, strange time signatures, and no voals is hard, it may not be pleasing but it is hard.

A fair point, but what you've described also sounds terribly contrived and completely unlistenable.

No I generally agree, but sometimes it just takes work to enjoy music that isen't processed for us.
And How docile is that? We are too lazy to learn new things.

Another good point, however I don't think it's as much about laziness as it is a desire to be accepted or famous, or make a ton of money. There are some amazing local musicians -- true artists! -- involved in several incestuous musical projects that have fairly limited appeal. Some only ever play one or two shows. I listen to them with jealousy and wish I had time to fully realize every single musical idea I've ever had; I can't, so I focus on something that at least pleases me and my imaginary audience. For me, it's a time issue. I wish I could devote myself fully too all things music, but I have other things in life to handle.

I have a huge amount of respect for someone who creates only for themselves, others be damned. I think you can find a lot of these types if you look around locally in the right places.

endsjustifymeans wrote:I like the Girlfriend song much more than her earlier mall punk stuff. It's catchy and fun and semi-anthemic. Sort of a modern version of "I know what boys like".

I liked it better when it was done by The Rubinoos, 20 years earlier.

But not the ROlling STones... h8 u Jagger...



Seriously though, i love pop music. I'd rather listen to Avril than most of anything else on the radio.

I love Liz, too. I went to one of those "Exile in Guyville" shows three years ago when I lived in New York. I took this from that night:

[youtube][/youtube]

My favorite Liz Phair song, nothing but just Liz and her white Duo-Sonic II. If I could have one famous guitar in the world, it's that one.

Lol at targeting 14 year old girls. Odd choice of words, that.

well thank you for joining the site to be our maturity police.

Clearly you understand nothing my dear.

nah, this is a discussion forum. the whole point is to share your opinion about different topics. if everyone just clammed up every time they had a contrary opinion it would be a mighty boring site. if you have some reason you think they are good, again please share it with us. that is the whole point of a site like this: to foster discussion.

Again...you don't listen.

you have a different opinion, ok, that's fine. no one is hating on that.

ahh...yes you were. Again. Not listening. Read my dear read.

"You never learn if you never listen."

Also..honeyiscool..everything you touched upon with MCR and FOB and any type of music for that matter..very well put. I agree.

fuck this thread.