ShortScale.org

hotrodperlmutter wrote:well then by that logic, you're saying that a HH special shouldn't be called a jag (minus the toggley).

toronado's are 24.75" jaguars. they're jaguar bodys with no forearm contours, in les paul mode. putting HH configuration (retaining the single vol/tone, mind you), adding a hardtail and a 3 way switch doesn't make it more of a toronado or any less of a jag. it makes it a new, less sophisticated version of a classic. nowt wrong with that, especially if it gets some kid interested in playing loud rock music and pissing off his parents.

if they made a stop tail strat with two humbuckers and a toggle switch, indifference would ensue. but they actually make a stripped down offset AND RETAIN THE SHORTSCALE, and everyone's got some beef with it.

pump the brakes, earnhardt, i'm hardly in a minority of folks saying this thing ain't cool, nor am i the first to make the toronado comparison. to me, fender's just being lazy (like saying a toronado is essentially a jag), and your proposed logic to defend that laziness doesn't jive anywhere close on the hh. it's still a shortscale and features all the chrome loveliness. the one thing that is noticeably missing is the trem, but then they do call it a "special" model, don't they? the main difference is most folks who know jags will look at an hh and know exactly what it is, even if they don't like it. . . because it's clearly just a modified jag incorporating a lot of the changes people would make on their own. the guitar in this thread -- to me (and many others) -- ditches quite a bit more of the aesthetic. when you change so many key elements of something that has achieved an iconic status (and this even can be applied to the toronado), don't be surprised when folks reject it. yeah, some people liked the "new coke", too, but in the end, it wasn't a coke. just like i am sure this guitar will be fun to play, and with the right setup could sound awesome. but i'll never look at it and go, "wow, what a nice jag." because it isn't.

Pens wrote:I love this thing. Need Lefty option.

someone gets it.

Who ever designed the Blacktop Jaguar obviously had a crush on the CIJ Jaguar HH and the Squier Jagmaster.

i don't think so. i think it was more like this:

dots wrote:

hotrodperlmutter wrote:well then by that logic, you're saying that a HH special shouldn't be called a jag (minus the toggley).

toronado's are 24.75" jaguars. they're jaguar bodys with no forearm contours, in les paul mode. putting HH configuration (retaining the single vol/tone, mind you), adding a hardtail and a 3 way switch doesn't make it more of a toronado or any less of a jag. it makes it a new, less sophisticated version of a classic. nowt wrong with that, especially if it gets some kid interested in playing loud rock music and pissing off his parents.

if they made a stop tail strat with two humbuckers and a toggle switch, indifference would ensue. but they actually make a stripped down offset AND RETAIN THE SHORTSCALE, and everyone's got some beef with it.

pump the brakes, earnhardt, i'm hardly in a minority of folks saying this thing ain't cool, nor am i the first to make the toronado comparison. to me, fender's just being lazy (like saying a toronado is essentially a jag), and your proposed logic to defend that laziness doesn't jive anywhere close on the hh. it's still a shortscale and features all the chrome loveliness. the one thing that is noticeably missing is the trem, but then they do call it a "special" model, don't they? the main difference is most folks who know jags will look at an hh and know exactly what it is, even if they don't like it. . . because it's clearly just a modified jag incorporating a lot of the changes people would make on their own. the guitar in this thread -- to me (and many others) -- ditches quite a bit more of the aesthetic. when you change so many key elements of something that has achieved an iconic status (and this even can be applied to the toronado), don't be surprised when folks reject it. yeah, some people liked the "new coke", too, but in the end, it wasn't a coke. just like i am sure this guitar will be fun to play, and with the right setup could sound awesome. but i'll never look at it and go, "wow, what a nice jag." because it isn't.

Agreed.
To me the aesthetic has been raped, still it might appeal to a bunch of kids somewhere (if it is cheap enough) but any Jag enthusiast will always want a traditional Jag like any fan of any model of guitar. I also believe the Jaguar's aesthetic is also its main selling point so this design seems a bit of a backward move by Fender to me, especially considering HH models are already available as well.

Fran wrote:

dots wrote:

hotrodperlmutter wrote:well then by that logic, you're saying that a HH special shouldn't be called a jag (minus the toggley).

toronado's are 24.75" jaguars. they're jaguar bodys with no forearm contours, in les paul mode. putting HH configuration (retaining the single vol/tone, mind you), adding a hardtail and a 3 way switch doesn't make it more of a toronado or any less of a jag. it makes it a new, less sophisticated version of a classic. nowt wrong with that, especially if it gets some kid interested in playing loud rock music and pissing off his parents.

if they made a stop tail strat with two humbuckers and a toggle switch, indifference would ensue. but they actually make a stripped down offset AND RETAIN THE SHORTSCALE, and everyone's got some beef with it.

pump the brakes, earnhardt, i'm hardly in a minority of folks saying this thing ain't cool, nor am i the first to make the toronado comparison. to me, fender's just being lazy (like saying a toronado is essentially a jag), and your proposed logic to defend that laziness doesn't jive anywhere close on the hh. it's still a shortscale and features all the chrome loveliness. the one thing that is noticeably missing is the trem, but then they do call it a "special" model, don't they? the main difference is most folks who know jags will look at an hh and know exactly what it is, even if they don't like it. . . because it's clearly just a modified jag incorporating a lot of the changes people would make on their own. the guitar in this thread -- to me (and many others) -- ditches quite a bit more of the aesthetic. when you change so many key elements of something that has achieved an iconic status (and this even can be applied to the toronado), don't be surprised when folks reject it. yeah, some people liked the "new coke", too, but in the end, it wasn't a coke. just like i am sure this guitar will be fun to play, and with the right setup could sound awesome. but i'll never look at it and go, "wow, what a nice jag." because it isn't.

Agreed.
To me the aesthetic has been raped, still it might appeal to a bunch of kids somewhere (if it is cheap enough) but any Jag enthusiast will always want a traditional Jag like any fan of any model of guitar. I also believe the Jaguar's aesthetic is also its main selling point so this design seems a bit of a backward move by Fender to me, especially considering HH models are already available as well.

i just don't get why it has to be called a "jaguar." why not something like "jagsonic" if fender is so afraid of people not being able to handle one of their offsets without a familiar name linked to it?

That dude from that band already called it. The Jugular, or something?
Anyway. It's a cool idea. The Jaguar namesake is lame. Squier wasn't afraid to call the Jagmaster what it was, Cyclones weren't called a *something* Mustang, though the aesthetics were certainly reminiscent of them. This is just Fender playing it safe as usual. It betrays a complete lack of a sense of adventure on their part but we've come to expect that of them by now, no? I can totally get around the stupid name because this is a cool design that looks like it's going to hit the street at a shockingly reasonable price by Fender standards. I just wish they came in more interesting colours. Baby steps, Fender, baby steps.

My ultimate guitar right now would be the HH special with a b/w/b pickguard, the original volume and tone knobs and zebra humbuckers

Probably change out the volume and tone pots too

hotrodperlmutter wrote:

astro wrote:

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Cool... when did they make competition orange mustangs? Or is that a stick-on stripe?

i'm not sure what you mean by competition orange mustangs... that's clearly a graffiti-ish yellow cyclone, but based on the poor angle, and inaccurate length, i'm saying it's a sticker.

jagsonic wrote:

astro wrote:Cool... when did they make competition orange mustangs? Or is that a stick-on stripe?

It's a sticker on a yellow cyclone...

D'OH!
*slaps head on forehead*

I think I need to get me eyes checked!

borrowedworld wrote:any word on when this will be out or how much?

The entire series is $450 MAP price and are supposed to be shipping the first week of September. They're all made in Mexico and don't include any bag. They are indeed legit and the cut sheets leaked are from dealer emails, as were the Squier Jazz Bass info. I can confirm since I work at a Fender dealer and placed an order for some on the day they were announced. Apparently the sunburst Jazzmaster has a black guard. Also, I believe the pictures in the cut sheets may be mock-ups as some of the specs don't agree with the pictures. For instance, the Jazzmaster specs identify and AVRI trem and Adjust-o-matic bridge, but the picture shows a standard Jag/JM bridge and a tailpiece with no lock-down mechanism (which would not be the kind the comes on on AVRI). So, the final product may be slightly different than the ones pictured. Personally, I'm most excited about the Jazzmaster and the Strat. Double hum teles don't do much for me, and a Jag without a vibrato unit of some kind also does nothing for me. The finish options are disappointing, as usual, but for $450 MAP it may be excusable. For just over 1/2 the price of a CP they're pretty damn cool.

As far as Fender "being lazy", I think you might be missing the fact that some people like minimal. Shit, this guitar is awesome but it still has one too many pickups in it for me.

This guitar is fucking cool. If you like minimal things like I do.

Pens wrote:As far as Fender "being lazy", I think you might be missing the fact that some people like minimal. Shit, this guitar is awesome but it still has one too many pickups in it for me.

This guitar is fucking cool. If you like minimal things like I do.

spot on.

Just boring.

In all fairness, even though these new blacktop models are far from jaw-dropping, I think they are a step in the right direction. Fender has pretty much only been interested in making Strats and Teles for the past 25 years. They are finally starting to realize that there's a fan base for their other classic designs as well. Who would have thought 5 years ago that Fender would be releasing new offsets at different price points, not to mention signature models? I hope Fender sells these by the truck load, because that will just encourage to release even more new models that aren't strats or teles.

all i want is a cheaper mustang. why does fender hate that guitar so much?

astro wrote:In all fairness, even though these new blacktop models are far from jaw-dropping, I think they are a step in the right direction. Fender has pretty much only been interested in making Strats and Teles for the past 25 years. They are finally starting to realize that there's a fan base for their other classic designs as well. Who would have thought 5 years ago that Fender would be releasing new offsets at different price points, not to mention signature models? I hope Fender sells these by the truck load, because that will just encourage to release even more new models that aren't strats or teles.

+1

peecheeclean wrote:all i want is a cheaper mustang. why does fender hate that guitar so much?

Why do you think they "hate" the Mustang? I've never heard or seen anything that would indicate to me that they do.

They had a Mustang in the product line from 1964 until 1982 or so... then again from the early 90s pretty much up to the present day. Except for that ten year gap about twenty years ago, they've been fairly consistently available - at least here in the USA. In Asia, they've been even more readily available. Speaking of which, I DO wish that we had access to all the different versions of the Mustang that are available in Japan... but in terms of "cheap Mustangs?" Ebay has a ton of them - both used and vintage. Player grade vintage stuff often goes for a grand or less, and even "collector's pieces" don't normally go for more than two to three grand. Used reissues and 90s era models often go for well under half of the current MSRP ("list") price of $1,200.00.

Fender is in business to make money, plain and simple. If they thought it would be profitable to make Coronado I's and II's again, they'd do it. They don't do it because you can get the originals for less than it would cost them to build new ones, and there just isn't much in the way of customer demand for them. With Mustangs, there has been a big demand for them in Japan for ages, and they've sold them there for about twenty years. In the USA, it wasn't until bands like Sonic Youth and Nirvana started using them in the early 90s that they started to go back up in popularity and Fender started selling them here again...

Maybe they'll do a Squier version of the Mustang (and Jazzmaster and Jaguar too) someday, but I don't think I'd bank on it. I may be wrong, and I kind of hope I am, but I don't think they see them as good options for "affordable" models due to their abundance of chrome hardware parts, switches, etc. Instead, we see them release things like Jagmasters - guitars that have some of the look and features of the Jaguar and Jazzmaster, but aren't "real" Jags and Jazzes, and because of their simplified design, are far less costly to manufacture. In terms of other cheap shortscales, we get things like the current CV Duo Sonic - again, with a bit of a 50s vibe to it, but easier / cheaper to make than a Mustang would be. For those who want a "real" Mustang, we have the MIJ models, which are generally quite nice. And of course, vintage models. I purchased a very nice, stripped of paint, but otherwise all original '71 competition Mustang, complete with case, from a fellow shortscale forumite a couple months back for under a grand, and after a bit of work on my part doing a lacquer refinish, I have a very nice guitar for about the same as a new one from Japan would have cost me. Fender KNOWS that you can score vintage Mustangs for relatively low dosh, and so they're not likely to be releasing upmarket / Custom Shop versions of them any time soon either - unless they eventually do something like a Cobain CS model or something.

Again, I don't know what leads you to think they "hate" Mustangs, but IMO, it's probably just a financially motivated decision, and nothing personal against us as Mustang lovers, or the guitar or design itself.

peecheeclean wrote:all i want is a cheaper mustang. why does fender hate that guitar so much?

Fender USA maybe, but Fender JAPAN offers an ass-ton of Mustang options. They love it over there.

It's ugly and boring. Fender needs to get their head out their ass and stop trying to do "new" things by changing colours and pickups for the modern age.

Robot Mustang Dusk Tiger Road Weary with Steve Vai carry handle and Brett Micheals signature piezo accoustisonic bridge. Spalted linoleum finish. Made in North Korea.

I like the Mustang but for me these don't generate the same excitement as the limited reissue studio 50's p-90 Pauls.