ShortScale.org

Sorry if this has been beat to death, but I've lurked and read. I've searched The Gear Page, Gearslutz, and a dozen other places. I've asked my friends, (problem is, their studios are so much bigger than what I'm looking to do.) I've identified what I hope to accomplish, and I think I've narrowed it down to the RME Fireface 800 and the Mackie Onyx 1640 w/ Firewire. They seem to be comparable feature-wise, and cost roughly the same.

Which would y'all go with and why? Or, something else in the same range?

Wow, they both look liek really cool and serious bits of kit:

Mackie

• *Premium 16-channel/4-bus small-format analog mixer
  * 16 new ONYX mic preamps comparable to boutique preamps
  * New 4-band Perkins EQ with dual sweepable midrange controls provides warm, musical sound
  * 96kHz FireWire option for streaming 18 independent channels of audio to computer with near-zero latency
  * 2 channels of monitoring from computer via FireWire option card
  * 6 Aux Sends w/ Pre/Post & Solo switches
  * 4 stereo line-level Aux Returns
  * 4-bus architecture for flexible sub-grouping of channels
  * Built-in Talkback section for use w/ internal or external mic
  * True hardware EQ Bypass
  * "Planet-Earth" switching power supply for worldwide use
  * Linear taper 60mm faders with ultra-smooth response on all channels
  * Balanced direct outs for every channel via DB-25 connections
  * Selectable Instrument inputs on first two channels-no DI box needed
  * Rotating I/O pod for desktop or rackmount operation

RME

• * Input AD: 8 x 1/4" TRS, 4 x XLR Mic, 1/4" TRS Line, all servo-balanced. 1 x 1/4" TS unbalanced
  * Output DA: 8 x 1/4" TRS, servo-balanced, DC-coupled signal path. 1 x 1/4" TRS unbalanced
  * Input Digital: 2 x ADAT optical or SPDIF optical, SPDIF coaxial (AES/EBU compatible)
  * Output Digital: 2 x ADAT optical or SPDIF optical, SPDIF coaxial (AES/EBU compatible)
  * MIDI: 1 x MIDI I/O via 5-pin DIN jacks, for 16 channels low jitter hi-speed MIDI

What are you aiming to do with these? Record full band stuff or just have as the master mixer in a studio setup?

My gut tells me if you have the money to go for the Mackie, it looks amazing and the more physical knobs and faders you have access to the better in my experience. I have something similar to the RME, an Edirol UA-1000 which does 10-in/10-out at once with software or direct monitoring and 4 TRS/XLR preamps onboard with a HiZ input and Pads, phantom power etc. I love it.


The other singer/guitarist in my band has recently bought a Mackie mixer and it's outstanding - really solid and great sounding.

Thanks for the reply, Mike. No, I wouldn't be recording a band, exactly. Or, rather, the band is ME! However, I do want to be able to mic a drum kit, and I always use at least three mics for the guitar. The 1640 is overkill, in a way, but I prefer to buy gear that I can "grow into," rather than stuff I'll outgrow in six months or a year.

Honestly, I was already leaning toward the Mackie, but I was afraid it might just be because I'm old school in that area, (last time I was in a studio was probably 1980 or 81,) and I feel more comfortable with the physical knobs and faders. The way I see it, you just have more options with having an outboard mixer.

Ultimately, I hope to build a small studio in my unfinished basement. I have a 13' 6" x 20' 0" space for the main room and vocal booth, and a separate 13' 6" x 5' room for the control booth. Commercially, I'll probably start with doing voice-overs, (one of my talents: voices,) but I hope to eventually, (once I can afford to buy all the stuff, to do my own music. I can already play Bass, Drums and Guitar, as well as sort-of sing; all I'm lacking is Keyboards, and I figure, with the sequencer, I can record it slow, (the extent of my ability,) and then bring it up to tempo in the mix.

Thanks again Mike.

Sounds good! bob who is one of our resident recording experts should be along at some point but I reckon he'll agree with you that the Mackie will be a great investment. You'll have lots of tracks so you can even have a semipermanent setup if you want to leave your drum set miced and have plenty incidental tracks leftover for guitars and vocals.

Definitely interested in hearing the results when you get this thing up and running, fell free to post it when you start experimenting and get some digital photos of your studio setup - i'm very jealous!

I havent used much Mackie stuff, but what I have done has done the job nicely. I remember when they released the Oynx range recently that it pretty much got great reviews across the board.

Initially when reading the spec just then, I was a little concerned at the idea of having global pre/post settings on the auxes. Thinking about it though, most of the time you'll be fine with that. You're most likely aware of the times when you'd want to use either (at least traditionally), and thinking about it, the only times I didnt use a global setting is when doing some poncey stuff with reverb that wasnt 100% necessary even if it did work within the song.

You'll keep a decent resale value on the Mackie. The other will most likely be a decent bit of kit too, but that sort of thing does tend to lose its value a bit more.

How much is the Mackie? Do you plan on using it with a pc? or a reel to reel setup or whatever. 16 firewire outs seems quite nice.

Good point bob. Re-sale value is something to look at, in case you don't like it or need to recoup some moneyz!

Mackie preamps are the nicest sounding I've used. But I've also used the exact same RME and that was a lovely little thing to use. If you were going to have a portable rack setup I'd say the RME, but go for the Mackie. The entire Onyx rage is something special I've heard.

Thanks Bob.

bob wrote:...Initially when reading the spec just then, I was a little concerned at the idea of having global pre/post settings on the auxes. Thinking about it though, most of the time you'll be fine with that. You're most likely aware of the times when you'd want to use either (at least traditionally), and thinking about it, the only times I didnt use a global setting is when doing some poncey stuff with reverb that wasnt 100% necessary even if it did work within the song...

Not sure if it's the same thing, but I wondered about the Firewire Outs being pre-EQ. Then I thought, okay, so I EQ that In within Cubase, (or whatever,) and I can run the mixer in through the main in on my PC?

bob wrote:...How much is the Mackie? Do you plan on using it with a pc? or a reel to reel setup or whatever. 16 firewire outs seems quite nice.

Well, MF -- I wonder if those initials are just coincidental? -- has it for $1,279.99, and the Firewire card is an additional $399.99, for a total of $1679.98. The RME Fireface 800 is $1,499.00, so it's less than $200.00 difference. Yeah, I'll be using my PC. I've got a pretty fast machine that I built myself with 2GB of RAM and a Drive I can devote to recording. I believe it will be up to the task; it's the machine I usually use for doing high-end 3D Modeling.

Which reminds me: BTW Mike, if you come across any UK firms looking for someone who can do this:



in half a dozen different programs, and is willing to hire an Emigrant, let me know, will ya? (That's Unigraphics NX, by the way.)

Altanon wrote:

bob wrote:...Initially when reading the spec just then, I was a little concerned at the idea of having global pre/post settings on the auxes. Thinking about it though, most of the time you'll be fine with that. You're most likely aware of the times when you'd want to use either (at least traditionally), and thinking about it, the only times I didnt use a global setting is when doing some poncey stuff with reverb that wasnt 100% necessary even if it did work within the song...

Not sure if it's the same thing, but I wondered about the Firewire Outs being pre-EQ. Then I thought, okay, so I EQ that In within Cubase, (or whatever,) and I can run the mixer in through the main in on my PC?

It's not the same thing, but that is a good point. It's a little bit annoying that that picture doesnt show the firewire part, so you can see if it has a pre/post EQ button. On the main routing section, where it says "firewire option" and then assign to main mix, its possible tha that will work as a post EQ button. It could well be that it sends just the stereo mix down the firewire route though.

In case people are reading this and are unfamiliar with the pre/post aux thing, I'll run through it quickly. The pre/post part refers to the fader. If the aux sent out pre fader, any movement of the fader will not change the send level of the aux. If you have the aux being sent after (post) the fader, turning the fader down will also turn down the aux send level. The most used examples of this; When you're sending a headphone mix through an aux (or pair of auxes) you wouldnt want to change what the musician performing is hearing when you move some faders about making a rough mix or whatever. If you have an aux being sent to a reverb unit, you would want the reverb to turn down with the track if you were to use the fader to fade it out or just to turn it down a bit. If you had the delay aux set to pre, the reverb would stay the same level when you turned the track down.

Mostly, you'd use the pre/post buttons for simple things like that, but sometimes it's nice to be able to leave the wet signal up when you turn down the track and to have the same aux set as post for everything else.

Altanon wrote:Which reminds me: BTW Mike, if you come across any UK firms looking for someone who can do this:



in half a dozen different programs, and is willing to hire an Emigrant, let me know, will ya? (That's Unigraphics NX, by the way.)

haha.. will do

bob wrote:

Altanon wrote:

bob wrote:...Initially when reading the spec just then, I was a little concerned at the idea of having global pre/post settings on the auxes. Thinking about it though, most of the time you'll be fine with that. You're most likely aware of the times when you'd want to use either (at least traditionally), and thinking about it, the only times I didnt use a global setting is when doing some poncey stuff with reverb that wasnt 100% necessary even if it did work within the song...

Not sure if it's the same thing, but I wondered about the Firewire Outs being pre-EQ. Then I thought, okay, so I EQ that In within Cubase, (or whatever,) and I can run the mixer in through the main in on my PC?

It's not the same thing, but that is a good point. It's a little bit annoying that that picture doesnt show the firewire part, so you can see if it has a pre/post EQ button. On the main routing section, where it says "firewire option" and then assign to main mix, its possible tha that will work as a post EQ button. It could well be that it sends just the stereo mix down the firewire route though.

In case people are reading this and are unfamiliar with the pre/post aux thing, I'll run through it quickly. The pre/post part refers to the fader. If the aux sent out pre fader, any movement of the fader will not change the send level of the aux. If you have the aux being sent after (post) the fader, turning the fader down will also turn down the aux send level. The most used examples of this; When you're sending a headphone mix through an aux (or pair of auxes) you wouldnt want to change what the musician performing is hearing when you move some faders about making a rough mix or whatever. If you have an aux being sent to a reverb unit, you would want the reverb to turn down with the track if you were to use the fader to fade it out or just to turn it down a bit. If you had the delay aux set to pre, the reverb would stay the same level when you turned the track down.

Mostly, you'd use the pre/post buttons for simple things like that, but sometimes it's nice to be able to leave the wet signal up when you turn down the track and to have the same aux set as post for everything else.

Awesome post. Really informative, mate.

One thing to consider possibly is the quality of the converters and internal clock for your A-->D. I'm guessing the RME probably has the Mackie beat in that department. The Mackie has additional preamps which is a nice feature and more of a standalone unit. With the RME you'd need to get additional outboard preamps, which might be cool in a way but would also set you back more money.

Altanon wrote:...and I think I've narrowed it down to the RME Fireface 800 and the Mackie Onyx 1640 w/ Firewire. They seem to be comparable feature-wise, and cost roughly the same.

Which would y'all go with and why? Or, something else in the same range?

To me, if you've narrowed it down to these two pieces of gear, the deciding factor is if you want to record/mix primarily with hardware or software...

I use the RME FF800 in my project studio, and can attest to its superb sound quality, and excellent driver support on both PC and Mac.. If you want a "mixerless" computer based studio, it's an outstanding choice. Keep in mind that it only has four mic inputs, so you'll have to buy outboard mic pre's if you need more. There's also a learning curve involved if you're not used to recording and mixing "in the box".

I've never used the Mackie Onyx 1640 FW, but I've used and owned enough Mackie gear to know that it's good stuff, and always a good bang for the buck. If the idea of using a traditional analog mixer, with nicely laid out channel strips, EQ, and FX sends appeals to you, I'd say go for it - it's a full featured mixer, with direct FW connection to your computer - what's not to like!? And w/ 16 mic inputs, you're pretty well covered...

For the best of both worlds, and the same price, you could get an RME Fireface 400, and a Mackie 1402-VLZ3.
That'd give you a first class sound card AND a pretty full featured mixing desk. Actually, it'd be $100 less, which
you could use towards cables (or whatever)!

Thanks fretman,

I think I will feel more comfortable with working with the dedicated control surface of the 1640, as opposed to working "in the box." For example, I've been struggling with Cubase trying to figure out which one of the damned buttons sets the input level for the active track.

I like the 16 pre's on the 1640, in case I do want to use it to do a whole band or to use it live. I also like the 4 busses on the 1640. So, unless something compelling comes along to change my mind, I'll be getting the 1640 with the Firewire option.

Thanks to everyone!

Aren't you one of the mods on the Marshall Forum???

More Cowbell wrote:Aren't you one of the mods on the Marshall Forum???

Yes.

More Cowbell wrote:Aren't you one of the mods on the Marshall Forum???

Altanon is a good guy. He was cool to me throughout the whole drama and I'm sure that place is going to be a great forum now that he's on board moderating along with some other guys.

Mike wrote:

More Cowbell wrote:Aren't you one of the mods on the Marshall Forum???

Altanon is a good guy. He was cool to me throughout the whole drama and I'm sure that place is going to be a great forum now that he's on board moderating along with some other guys.

Thanks Mike. Yeah, I guess I should have known it would be a problem, but it never occured to me.

I didn't come here to cause problems; I was just looking for good places to hang out online.

I know as a Moderator you can't delete members, but the Administrator can. If me being here isn't a good thing, maybe you could just have him delete me.

Thanks again Mike, and everyone who offered advice.

It's not a problem, that guy was just being a spacka. I dont think anyone has a problem with that forum, just that guys attitude.