Les Ethics

[DGNR8]

HERE'S a nice little question of market value and morals. $400 seems like a nice price for something that looks like an LP. But this guy knowingly imported a fraudulent item, which means he could technically be liable for it. At a remove of one or two more people, a person could claim ignorance. It looks like China has improved on their COUNTERFEITS. But the TOM placement looks a little dodgy. I have seen some real Gibsons with differing angles on the TOM--and it may also be a shit photo. Yet at the very least, it may need to be rewired with proper caps and decent schematics, just to get better sondz.

The trouble with any copy or stolen guitar is that it is a hot potato. If you like it for what it is, you can thumb your nose at Gibson and the sellers who think that $1-6K is a reasonable price. But if you ever change your mind, you are stuck with having to make excuses or look dicky (like this hillbilly). The fact that it is local and a decent copy makes it that much more a dilemma. If I had it, I would strip it down and make it into a relic gold top. It's not likely to have good wood or nitro paint, so it's not a very good start.

The far reaching moral question is less clear. It is believed that much of modern lumber market is lousy with illegal trees being smuggled out of Russia to China, to be made into every sort of consumer item. Even WalMart has had to be more careful to investigate its vendors. If we ever run out of decent wood, even copies will be a commodity. This is why we needs advocates like Mike to keep us from going over to the dark side and embracing Las Pauls at all.

[william]

im not following.

i dont have a personal moral issue with copying les pauls, or strats, or whatever. gibson and fender have made enough money off these designs from an intellectual standpoint and i just dont care if they make any more, if the copiers are physically able to make a product that is worth the going rate. they can worry about this issue themselves. copying small builders guitars is another matter, but i dont think thats really a lucrative black market, sort of by definition.

as far as the wood, what does that have to do specifically with copied guitars? are you saying LP's are inherently immoral because of how much wood they use?

[DaveB]

My brother was telling me about these. I know they're in Toronto.

[Nick]

It's a tough situation. You're dealing with a cheaply built guitar that's meant to be a dead ringer for the real deal, as far as looks go, so I'd be more wary of construction than anything else. The singer from Ultratwin's old band had a Chinese epiphone SG custom copy that basically just "fell apart" quite literally, under normal use. Gibson had to saw an epi version of the same guitar in half to put out the fire that started when she posted in their forums iirc.

The stupidest thing you can do is buy a shoddy guitar because of how it looks that you can't get rid of. If you're craving a Les Paul your best bet is to save your pennies and find a used one. It might be at least twice the price, but you'll know you're getting what you paid for, and you won't have to lie about it if you ever need/want to sell it.

Of course if you can play it before buying it and it vibes with you perfectly, then for $400 you'd almost be stupid not to.

[Bacchus]

The stupidest thing you can do is buy a shoddy guitar because of how it looks that you can't get rid of. If you're craving a Les Paul your best bet is to save your pennies and find a used one. It might be at least twice the price, but you'll know you're getting what you paid for, and you won't have to lie about it if you ever need/want to sell it.

Aye. A fella once sold me a guitar in a quite stunning purpler burst. I think he was a scam artist, though.

[Ty]

That counterfeit could have fooled me.Look's to me like they are getting better and better.

[Nick]

The stupidest thing you can do is buy a shoddy guitar because of how it looks that you can't get rid of. If you're craving a Les Paul your best bet is to save your pennies and find a used one. It might be at least twice the price, but you'll know you're getting what you paid for, and you won't have to lie about it if you ever need/want to sell it.

Aye. A fella once sold me a guitar in a quite stunning purpler burst. I think he was a scam artist, though.

And I had to sell it for pennies on the dollar to even get rid of it myself. I paid about $450 for that poor guitar when it was new. But in comparison to this deal here, at least you bought a solid piece of wood from a real manufacturer, and not a Chinese copy made of God knows what.

[Bacchus]

Aw, I'm very happy with the guitar, I was only joking like. It's strung A to a, and does what it's supposed to do well.

I didn't realise you'd bought it from new for that much. I'd assumed it was a beater guitar that you happened across. I feel kind of bad now, given what I got it for and what you paid for it.

[Nick]

That counterfeit could have fooled me.Look's to me like they are getting better and better.

Better at looking like the real thing. Don't be fooled. I've played one or two really good copies, but on a solid color model like this it's oh so easy to hide what's under the paint.

[Nick]

Aw, I'm very happy with the guitar, I was only joking like. It's strung A to a, and does what it's supposed to do well.

I didn't realise you'd bought it from new for that much. I'd assumed it was a beater guitar that you happened across. I feel kind of bad now, given what I got it for and what you paid for it.

It was my 2nd guitar when I was like 13-14 I think. I overpaid for it really, those things shouldn't sell for more than $350 new, but I bought it from a shitty mom and pop rip off store that asks for list and needs to be talked down. This was before I knew any better and before we had any mars musics or guitar centers in the area. I really bought the wrong guitar, I liked it cause it was shiny and black (at the time anyway). I wasn't into shred or anything at all when I bought it, I didn't even know what a floyd rose was (or how to string it for that matter). I never liked how narrow the fretboard was, but because the sales people (not to mention my instructor from the same store) cared oh so much more about actually showing me what differences to look for in choosing a guitar than just taking my money and robbing me blind, I bought it anyway.

What did I end up selling it for? $60 or something like that? It wasn't worth much more than that in the condition it was in. You're enjoying it now, and I definitely got my use out of it long ago, learned how to install pickups on it, and had some fun refinishing it like 5 times so that's all that really matters. I wish I had sold it when it was a matte vintage white, it was actually quite attractive then.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, fifty dollars. Or was it fifty pounds? I think it might have cost me fifty pounds all in all including postage.

At the minute, it only has a bridge humbucker (that I got off shad, somehow) and has been assembled using duct-tape instead of screws.

[Nick]

Yeah, either way though I doubt I'd have gotten that much more on the bay, and I'd personally rather someone on here who's actually using the damn thing have it than some dumb kid on ebay who wants a gay cheap guitar to smash it at a show.

[Ty]

That counterfeit could have fooled me.Look's to me like they are getting better and better.

Better at looking like the real thing. Don't be fooled. I've played one or two really good copies, but on a solid color model like this it's oh so easy to hide what's under the paint.

True, I'm also not much of gibson guy myself.

[Bacchus]

That makes a lot of sense.

It's ridiculous how cheap that style of guitar goes for these days. I was in Cash Converter (the closest thing you get to a pawn shop over here) and they have a wall full of superstrats. There's an awful lot of guitar there for not much money. It's hard to imagine them ever being cool again, but then people would have said that about Mustahgs and such twenty years ago.

They have a really nice/interesting Ibanez there, that looks like a seventies model. It's strat shaped, although it isn't a clone. It was pretty cool and pretty ugly. I think they were looking two hundred for it. They also had an RG450 for two hundred quid. Silly.

[Nick]

That counterfeit could have fooled me.Look's to me like they are getting better and better.

Better at looking like the real thing. Don't be fooled. I've played one or two really good copies, but on a solid color model like this it's oh so easy to hide what's under the paint.

True, I'm also not much of gibson guy myself.

Neither was I until I bought one.

[Ty]

Better at looking like the real thing. Don't be fooled. I've played one or two really good copies, but on a solid color model like this it's oh so easy to hide what's under the paint.

True, I'm also not much of gibson guy myself.

Neither was I until I bought one.

I had a borrowed flying v at one point in my life, but it was one of those "faded" models, and I've played one of those "black beauty" Les Pauls, and I loved it, but it's just how much they weigh that I'm not in love with.

[Nick]

A lot of the new ones are chambered way more than they used to be, so they're on the lighter side. I bought mine in 07, the last year the studios were made without the crazy chambering...At first I regretted not waiting, but I decided to man up and just play it. My left shoulder has gotten significantly stronger since owning it.

[Ty]

The other side is, I just don't see myself as a Les Paul player, but owning one, fake or not would be cool.

[Fran]

I dont have a moral issue with copies, poor ones are disappointing but im not anti-counterfeit concerning a decal or design. To be honest, when you have pumped thousands of pounds over the years into an industry and been shafted by guitar stores its nice to get the odd victory. Even something as simple as sticking your middle finger up to Gibson.
When i played with the Pistols cover band i modified an $100 Les Paul to look like Steve Jones' LP, it was purely cosmetic, when i sold it i stated that. Fuck paying £1,800 to Gibson, they are dreaming. I know what goes into making a guitar like a lot of people on this forum and Gibson CANNOT justify their prices other than 'demand'.

The Chinese counterfeits i have played have been garbage, they look good from 3 feet away but thats about it. Personally i would try to pick up early 80s Jap LP's like Yamaha Studio Lord, Aria Pro, Tokai or Ibanez for fair quality and even better than Gibson in some cases.

On another note with cheaper copies, the Squier Bullet Strat Special i bought for like £65.. i put a Korean Squier neck on it and fitted a Seymour Duncan SH-5 and to be honest, it puts half of my guitars to shame. Im talking guitars that cost 5 times more than that did. Now then.

[robert(original)]

in the case of wood, its getting pretty sticky at the moment, prices are going way up, and even doubling for some stuff.
there has been alot of talk of putting honduran mohog in the same cataglory as brazillian rosewood.
about 3 years ago primavera started popping up(its just like mohog except its white instead of brown)
and that was mainly due to hibdon in st. lious, they also sold some of thier stock to stu mac.
but according to adam that words in the dry and cutting at hibdon they had to stop exporting it becuz........
originally the locals would tell them which trees needed to be cut down and which ones they would alow, and that worked great for about 3 years until recently a rebel group took over the area and the last time they went down there they were met with guns in thier face and were ordered to pay for thier lives.
they promptly got back on the plane or boat and left.