True Bypass/Buffer Revelations

Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:37 am

So kids, I experienced something interesting at rehearsal last night. I made a couple of changes to my board before that I thought would make no real difference:

Echo Base - off, replaced by Memory Boy - wanted to try it with the band and see how it behaves on the Diago daisy (excellently btw)
Korg DT-10 - off, replaced by Korg Pitchblack - it's sexy. So sue me.

Basically this made my whole pedal board true bypass, it's all pedals I built except for the Korg and EHX which are both true bypass also.

Well excuse me the fuck?

Clean sound - fucked up. Plugging direct into the amp was totally fine, nice and spanky and crystal clean into the low gain input of the 800, but through the board it was GASH, lost a lot of highs leaving me with a honky sound and a NASTY sort of breakup artifact shite. Did a fuckload of debugging looking for bad patch leads before eventually at my wits end grabbing Gareths' Korg DT-10 and trying that in place of the pitchblack.

BLAMMO, back to normal.

The Korg DT-10 has a buffer in it, and from the sounds of it, a very fucking nice one at that! So lesson to learn kiddiewinks - true bypass ain't always a good thing, always a good idea to have at least one decent buffer on your board.

AHTHANKYOU

Shaguar · Post by **Shaguar** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:20 am

I remember reading a long time ago a debate on another forum about buffered vs true bypass, and the results were actually surprising. People with short effect chains didnt notice anything much but once people who had 5 or more effects on their board did notice a bit of tone sucking.

I think this debate went on on aron nelson's forums, I'll have to find it again because there were some very good responses in it.

chisa · Post by **chisa** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:42 am

yeah, i noticed the difference and added a bypass looper to my set up to compensate. makes you think, all those little wires inside the pedal and on the switch are nowhere near as substantial as a audio cable.

timhulio · Post by **timhulio** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:32 am

There's a good article about this on Pete Cornish's site.

Oddly, I've got the simplest of pedal boards - it's Korg DT-10, couple of true bypass pedals, then Behringer Reverb modeller. The culprit is likely the Behringer, but with everything off the sound isn't good.

Actually Mike, do you use the 'bypass' output from the Korg? Is that buffered too? Maybe this is the problem.

I'm still waiting on those sloped enclosures to put together a custom pedal for my own use- it'll have switchable buffer, mxr microamp, harmonic percolator, and a bypass loop for troublesome effects.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:14 pm

Isn't it because of the amount of resistence and over all distance of travel for the signal? it's those posh cables like G L's and Analysis that aim to lessen the resistence because of this factor and I know signal boosters are commonly employed to push a signal a longer distance. I don't know if a buffer and a booster are the same deal or not eletrically but I ssume the reult is the same.

Anyway i'm chuffed by this result because I have a DT 10 and some effects. Jealousy avoided at the last minute, phew

Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:26 pm

timhulio wrote:There's a good article about this on Pete Cornish's site.

Oddly, I've got the simplest of pedal boards - it's Korg DT-10, couple of true bypass pedals, then Behringer Reverb modeller. The culprit is likely the Behringer, but with everything off the sound isn't good.

Actually Mike, do you use the 'bypass' output from the Korg? Is that buffered too? Maybe this is the problem.

I'm still waiting on those sloped enclosures to put together a custom pedal for my own use- it'll have switchable buffer, mxr microamp, harmonic percolator, and a bypass loop for troublesome effects.

All outputs on the Korg DT-10 are buffered, it uses electronic switching. I use the "output" so it's muted when in use.

Pitchblack = True Bypass using relay switching

timhulio · Post by **timhulio** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:37 pm

Black Cat Bone wrote:Isn't it because of the amount of resistence and over all distance of travel for the signal? it's those posh cables like G L's and Analysis that aim to lessen the resistence because of this factor and I know signal boosters are commonly employed to push a signal a longer distance. I don't know if a buffer and a booster are the same deal or not eletrically but I ssume the reult is the same.

Anyway i'm chuffed by this result because I have a DT 10 and some effects. Jealousy avoided at the last minute, phew

Longer cables cause capacitance, not resistance.
http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_again ... ypass.html

Boosters and buffers are not the same thing.
http://www.muzique.com/news/boosters-are-not-buffers/

Mike wrote:relay switching

Is this something we can do?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:43 pm

timhulio wrote:
Black Cat Bone wrote:Isn't it because of the amount of resistence and over all distance of travel for the signal? it's those posh cables like G L's and Analysis that aim to lessen the resistence because of this factor and I know signal boosters are commonly employed to push a signal a longer distance. I don't know if a buffer and a booster are the same deal or not eletrically but I ssume the reult is the same.

Anyway i'm chuffed by this result because I have a DT 10 and some effects. Jealousy avoided at the last minute, phew
Longer cables cause capacitance, not resistance.
http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_again ... ypass.html

Boosters and buffers are not the same thing.
http://www.muzique.com/news/boosters-are-not-buffers/

Mike wrote:relay switching
Is this something we can do?

Cheers for the clarification!

Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:25 pm

timhulio wrote:
Mike wrote:relay switching
Is this something we can do?

Yeah, but it's more expensive and complicated. You just use the switch to create a small electrical pulse which changes the relay state, breaking the connection to the FX and making the connection between the jacks. I think you're doing fine with your DPDT + Mill and I'm 3PDT for lyfe, will just recommend people have a buffer on their board for > 5 pedals, and I'll start selling one if people want one.

euan · Post by **euan** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:51 pm

Frantone was well into the relay shit.

Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:17 pm

She's back you know, have also seen her use 3PDTs.

http://www.frantone.com/

Frantone goes completely custom = $800 for a two-in-one pedal.

Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:21 pm

I have designed many fuzztones, including the 2000 New York City Big Muff for Electro-Harmonix

Aaaahh the most hated version. Kudos!

aen · Post by **aen** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:24 pm

Mike wrote:She's back you know, have also seen her use 3PDTs.

http://www.frantone.com/

Frantone goes completely custom = $800 for a two-in-one pedal.

Snicker.

There was a BLOW OUT on Harmony Central about that. A lot of Devi poking fun and Vex FLIPPING THE FUCK OUT.

benecol · Post by **benecol** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:08 pm

timhulio wrote:The culprit is likely the Behringer, but with everything off the sound isn't good.

Have you got the 'Trails' switched on? That'll play havoc with your signal, I discovered.

timhulio · Post by **timhulio** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:32 pm

benecol wrote:
timhulio wrote:The culprit is likely the Behringer, but with everything off the sound isn't good.
Have you got the 'Trails' switched on? That'll play havoc with your signal, I discovered.

Yes... yes I do! Woot. Oh.

benecol · Post by **benecol** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:34 pm

Does the 'Oh' mean it didn't work?