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Let's be honest: They all sound painfully average.

I think I've tried all the major ones: Champion 600, EVJr, Orange AD5, Bugera V5, AC4, Little Giant, etc. I haven't encountered a single one that honestly sounds better than an equivalently sized solid state amp.

Champ 600: build quality aside, it sounds kinda cool until you get to the really gainy settings. Build ruins it, though - the volume control being a plastic trimmer instead of a pot, for example. I've also heard some 6V6s won't fit. It purports to be the Champ 600 reissue, but it's actually a SF Champ circuit with the treble and bass controls fixed at about 6.

EVJr: Sounds flat, overly mid-y, and breaks up too fast.

Peavey Royal 8: Not much to say. Sounds similar to the small Transtube amps, but those cost less and do more.

Orange AD5: Sounds the best of the ones of tried, but gets much too distorted too fast. Maybe it's just not my style, but it felt over-the-top. I also don't think it sounds any better than the Orange Crush 30, which has 2 channels, reverb, a line out, headphone out, and equivalent build quality. The Crush 30 costs less than half as much.

Bugera V5: I dug it, but muddy. The Vox Pathfinder 15 sounds similar and does more better.

AC4: Sounds fine, but same point as with the V5: the Pathfinder is better. The AC4 also has the worst tube placement I could ever imagine. The tubes literally cook the electrolytic caps from maybe an inch away.

Little Giant: Easily the best build quality, but the $350 price tag puts in in the range of gig-worthy larger amps like the Bugera V22. It's sounded lifeless to me on the 3 occasions I've tried it.

On an environmental note, there's also no advantage to these over a 15W+ amp from a power standpoint. My Ampeg Jet draws around 45W, which is about the same as the Champ 600 and some of the other amps. It's remarkable how inefficient the single-ended design is compared to push-pull.

This is not even mentioning the excellent sound quality of digital. The new Vox VT15 is now $170 and has 22 amp models with 12 effects. Do any of the tube amps in its range sound superior enough to justify the versatility sacrifice? Well, I personally think none even sound as good, let alone better.

All this aside, I like the small-amp sound. That boxy, tinny, gritty, cheap sound is very near to my heart. That's why I've gone to the trouble of trying all these amps. Yet, I've found that most SS amps of reasonable quality can get that sound, plus do other things. Except the Fender Frontmans. They just suck.

We all kinda know these amps are all about marketing hype, yet I feel like it needs to be said for some reason. They usually just aren't worth it.

interesting stuff.
i've not tried any of them

what about the new marshall 5 watter. It is not cheap, but sounds great from what I have heard.

The Class 5 is in a different ballpark than the aforementioned. That thing simply ROCKS if you keep the Volume on 10 and adjust the gain with your guitar's volume knob

example

I haven't played the Marshall. I wouldn't really be the sound I'm after, but it does sound nice and Marshall-y from the demos.

If you do your toneshaping via pedals, I have a hard time seeing anyone doing better than a bugera v5 in terms of bang for your buck. I love that thing.

so are there vintage low wattage amps that you dig? in your opinion what is missing from these new amps that the older models had?

mage wrote:so are there vintage low wattage amps that you dig? in your opinion what is missing from these new amps that the older models had?

I guess that's kinda the punchline - The old ones sound average, too

I like the old BF/SF Fender Champs - built like tanks and make good practice amps. The SF ones can still be found for under $300 in good condition, too. The Tweed Princeton is also good, as the 10" speaker gives it a nice balance. The Gibson Skylark is good as well - like a cleaner tweed Champ. I have a soft-spot for the old Danos and Silvertones, but they really sound very primitive. All those old little amps make your guitar sound like it's coming off a 78 or through a telephone speaker.

Yet, a good quality modern SS amp sounds as good or better than any of those and if much safer to use. Tone is subjective, but most every player values a clarity, balance, and richness that those amps don't produce in my experience. The only place you could argue they're superior is in the dynamic way they respond when pushed, yet I think that is often hampered by the limited tone shaping and small speakers.

What the new amps need:
RELIABILITY: Actual Alpha or CTS pots and over-spec'd resistors, caps, and transformers. From what I've seen, the parts most companies choose just barely meet what the job requires. The AC4 also needs to put the tubes in a rational place, like dangling out of the chassis.
Better Speakers/baffles: Modern speakers are very bassy, and I think it costs clarity (especially since most of these amps only have a tone control). The market pressure is to give these amp a lot of bass kick so they "sound bigger", but in my experience pulling back the bass leads to a much more balanced and rich sound. A good plywood baffle would also help with the richness for some of the cheaper amps.
Tone Control: at least a tone knob, possibly a 2 or 3 band. This is just a pure convenience feature that some left out because some people on TGP think it sucks tone.

Of course, the Little Giant has all those things and still doesn't sound amazing. I think the 5W SE format is just difficult to work in overall.

I am really unhappy with my Fender Champ 600.

It sounds good with a Tele, and at 7 has a bit of bite, good for bluesy sounds or country pickin'.

However, if you take it past 7 you get the overdrive you want but you also get this unwanted static aftebirth. Forget about using a humbucker or high output pickup with it. Don't even think about effects other than distortion. I think the speaker is what really lets it down.

I am looking for a cabinet I can use with it.

Will wrote:

mage wrote:so are there vintage low wattage amps that you dig? in your opinion what is missing from these new amps that the older models had?

I guess that's kinda the punchline - The old ones sound average, too

so, what's the problem exactly????


they're definitely not versatile amps but they have their place. they get that small middy sound without sounding shit. I quite like them. I don't think anything you've said here is really a shocker. yeah, they sound average. they don't have anything like the flexability of their bigger brothers. but they're not just average because they also get that middy clarity that these amps are known for. you can replace the caps and upgrade the cord to a 3-prong if you are worried about safety. and the new ones like V5 add all the extra options like line out, etc. I think they're well worth it for what they are.

I haven't played a lot of the new ones though. only my sister's EV jr. briefly and uh, yeah, it was pretty average. lol. I prefer my kalamazoo.

nwordjim wrote:I am really unhappy with my Fender Champ 600.

It sounds good with a Tele, and at 7 has a bit of bite, good for bluesy sounds or country pickin'.

However, if you take it past 7 you get the overdrive you want but you also get this unwanted static aftebirth.

yeah, that's how they are. don't turn it past 7 and it's fine. use a pedal to drive it if you want more gain.

I recently got the AC4 and i think its great! The sound is smooth and warm eventhough a bit boxy, but with that cab size you cant expect miracles.
I heard the class5 as well which maybe sounded fuller eventhough it got muddy on loud volume but its for my need for a SMALL amp for living room use with warm tube tone the AC4 wins all. not to mention it looks great as well

like i said, i haven't played any of these, but i think his point was that they're comparable or even less than less expensive solid states? i don't think he was expecting them to live up to their "bigger brothers"

yeah I know, the exchange that confused was like this:

will: these new 5w amps sound average. and the thing is, I like the small amp sound!
me: so what small amps do you like?
will: that's the thing, they all sound average!!
me: ?!?!????

well, it all depends to what each one expects from an amp.
My ideal amp is one that I plug the guitar and do not have to dial any settings, thats why I like the vox tube amps. They only have practically ONE sound, but that sound is amazing.
If someone wants presets, effects, modeling, etc then those small tube amps dont do dat

Personally I think the AC4 and the Marshall Class 5 are both fantastic.

my vibro champ is really good

My Fender Champ 600 was €172

I could buy this on sale for €199

http://www.thomann.de/ie/fender_fm212r_ ... ncombo.htm

So for €27 more I could have had a solid state 2x12

Fender frontman amps are shocking. Steer well, well clear.

Although the cheap Oranges are made in China (I think) the build quality is really good. The AD5 is good, but I'd go for a TT combo, because it has more options.

Mike wrote:Fender frontman amps are shocking. Steer well, well clear.

I think the general rule is:

When you buy cheap you buy twice.

"Cheap" as in cheap quality, not inexpensive.