Worth More Dead Than Alive

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:04 am

This rant has been a long time coming, but I was just looking at a few ads where a guy is literally ripping apart a 1961 Jazzmaster and selling it off as parts.

Granted, that is pretty uncommon... but it is NOT uncommon at all among our vintage shortscales.

Musicmasters, Mustangs, Duo-Sonics, and Jaguars are worth considerably more when parted out than they are if left complete. A nice MusicMaster from '65 with the original case will fetch about $700. If you rip it apart, you get $300 for the body, $250 for the neck, $150 for the pickup, $100 for the tuners, $100 for the bridge, $100 for the pickguard, and another $100 for the loaded control plate, and $250 for the case... for a total of about $1350. You can do the same math with a Duo-Sonic, just ad another $150 for the other pickup and $50 for the switches. Or for a Mustang, add another $50 for the trem (rather than bridge).

The result is that there are a lot of eBay sellers picking up nice vintage Shortscales and then ripping them apart to sell the pieces. It quite honestly infuriates me to no end.

Does anyone else feel that this kind of behavior violates some kind of ethical code among vintage guitar owners? Sure, SOME of us benefit from acquiring that missing part or two that are hard to find - but there are plenty of jacked up old Fenders which can be parted out... the nicer examples which are mostly original should be left alone IMO.

Rant off.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:07 am

Edit - I'd posted this in the wrong section - now she's been moved. Thanks, Dots!

Pacafeliz · Post by **Pacafeliz** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:40 am

i hate that too, when they do that carnage. it hurts to see a perfectly good guitar go up in pieces.

but.. i have done it too but NOT with original ones. the ones i did part out were raped and/or butchered parts guitars.
but if it's more than 75% original i wouldn't even consider it, no matter how badly i need the $$$.
i don't wanna go to hell.

Pat.

Skip · Post by **Skip** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:45 am

i will never part out an original guitar-- ever--- it aint right

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:45 am

I'm not totally blameless either... My #1 at the moment started as a '64 MusicMaster with a transition Spaghetti logo and clay dot markers... It was the 22.5" scale. I picked up a basketcase Duo-Sonic with a great 24" scale neck and put it on the MusicMaster. (I'm not about to part with the original neck, though). I also had the dead '66 pickups rewound and put them in my Strat - but only temporarily.

I'm now in the process of resurrecting the other parts of that Duo-Sonic somewhat. I got a donor body coming, I'm using the hardware from the Duo on it. I ordered a MusicMaster pickguard ('66), and I'm putting one of those rewound pickups back in it. Hopefully I can source another 24" scale neck - if not, I'll use the lil 22.5" scale guy on there.

If/when the time comes, I can put the MusicMaster back to stock, though.

If I sent its components in ten different directions, it would just be another vintage guitar lost...

Like Skip said - it ain't right.

cobascis · Post by **cobascis** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:17 am

Yeah it's sort of sad to see an instrument divided out. Agree'd with pat, I think it's perfectly fine in a complete butcher job, what else is there to do?

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:48 am

If it's refinned or routed or has had anything changed(beyond little shit like switches, string trees, screws or a nut) it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. They just threw mass produced parts together at Fender anyway, it's not like every part of every guitar was made specifically to be matched on one particular instrument(though I played a 58 Strat that was SO nice it could make one believe otherwise).

It does bother me when it's something really nice, but even then I try to look at the bright side. It's selfish but for every one nice one that gets parted out it gets harder to come by one as nice as my 66.

Haze · Post by **Haze** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:01 am

i didn't mind picking up a musicmaster neck for 50 bucks a month ago

I don't agree with parting out perfectly good examples of these vintage fenders that are already a minority. But when I'm the one who picked up a vintage neck just because its a good deal, i'm GLAD that someone is selling these parts. I'm actually excited to hunt down all of the period correct parts and make a great 78 musicmaster out of this neck i have. And i couldn't do that if people weren't selling them piece by piece.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:07 am

I'm against busting apart a decent condition vintage. Initially I was into the idea of putting together vintage parts as a project but as it quickly becomes an expensive pain in the arse frankly. Buy a complete guitar. Job done. But there is a need for parts too I guess but they should come, as Pat says, from ones that have already been raped

kim · Post by **kim** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:19 am

i'm against it too, it's so sad, but selling the individual parts gets them more money than selling the guitar as a whole eh, they can ask more for the parts because there's a demand for it and they are hard to find so people are willing to cash out more so if all the parts are way way overpriced it adds up in the total sum of what you can get for a guitar you would've sold as a whole and people are more likely to buy just the parts and what they need because the price compared to a complete guitar is lower so it doesn't show so much how fucking overpriced the parts are. it's sad. some parted out guitars are part of a generation of guitars that will never be built (in that way and those components) ever again but it doesn't mean you have to stare yourself blind on 'vintage' instruments, they're not always the best option in my opinion. sometimes it's cheaper to buy and newly built guitar and upgrade the way you want it and it'll still be cheaper than vintage a have more value to what you need it for anyway.

DGNR8 · Post by **DGNR8** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:37 am

I think the Peanutlady on ebay busts them up. It's a shame to see someone trying to make money that way. It doesn't seem to matter WHAT they are selling. There's no love in it. But I have benefited from parts sellers, and a few lucky auctions.

It's all just stuff, right? You can't take it with you, so your kin will sell it to some covetous malingering co-worker who comes asking about it.

The market doesn't always reflect or reward intrinsic worth. What's sick is how it gets down to any hunk of shit anything that was scavenged off on an old guitar, whether it works or not. And some of us are just dumb enough to satisfy those nagging urges to get that one last piece down the road.

I don't know that it is virtuous to put beaters back together, but it sure feels good.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:35 am

I just got a very clean '66 MusicMaster guard from PeanutLady (I prefer the MM setup to the Duo... call me crazy). I can only imagine that the guitar it came off of was super clean.

As for the vintage debate... '64-67 are where it is at - hands down. The bodies and necks of the later versions are a far cry from the comfort of the old Nitro stuff. I'm stoked about my *new to me* '75 Bronco - it is a great quality guitar - but it will be the last post '67 shortscale I buy. It just doesn't quite have that vintage vibe and feel... Poly can't capture it. I need that soft broken in neck, and I love a worn in fully checked Nitro body. That is another debate, though.

If these guitars weren't being parted out so frequently, the demand for parts would probably be less as well, if that makes sense. I'm all for the occasional butchered guitar getting sold off in pieces - but regardless of the fact that Fenders are bolted together components, nice originals should be left original.

Then again, piecing together a guitar is a lot of fun to do. I just got a late 60s MM/Duo body in the mail today, and am sanding a poor refinish off of it as we speak. Those are the kinds of guitars that should be parted out, though - not a beautiful original.

Good debate - keep it coming!

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:26 am

Controversial point I'm mooting for discussion (not saying I suuport this entirely but):

Does the existence of OffsetGUitars and Shortscale to some extent drive the market for project offset/shortscale parts? And is this a bad thing for the eguitars we love when these guitars are far from ubiquitous (like Strats) in thier original form, and are not copied enough to make the pillaging of vintage examples not worth it?

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:40 pm

I think you're on to something there BCB.

jcyphe · Post by **jcyphe** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:05 pm

Fenders are parts guitars, it doesn't bother me at all. If you don't want them parted out pay a lot more for whole ones, or don't buy parts for your own projects. How many people are willing to do that?

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:09 pm

That really isn't the point of discussion. You see nothing wrong with taking a pristine vintage example of a shortscale and then tearing it apart so that you could make a buck flipping it?

I could buy every shortscale that pops up on eBay, take it apart, and almost double my money selling them off in pieces. No issue there?

Also, you don't generally pay "more" for a complete guitar than you would piecing one together - that is what we're talking about here!

Post by **dots** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 pm

it's a damn shame, for sure, and i personally wouldn't buy from somebody who's got all the pieces of a perfectly good guitar up for auction. as mentioned before, butchered instruments are a different story. it's just like what they do with old cars. when you find one worth restoring, nobody with a complete 1937 plymouth is going to sell you the transmission from his to complete yours. you have to go the junkyard for that, find dealers, or go re-pro.

jcyphe · Post by **jcyphe** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:09 am

Dice wrote:That really isn't the point of discussion. You see nothing wrong with taking a pristine vintage example of a shortscale and then tearing it apart so that you could make a buck flipping it?

I could buy every shortscale that pops up on eBay, take it apart, and almost double my money selling them off in pieces. No issue there?

Also, you don't generally pay "more" for a complete guitar than you would piecing one together - that is what we're talking about here!

I don't have any issue with it not enough to get all up in arms about. What a silly thing to have "an issue" about.

If every vintage shortscale was parted out then whole examples would be worth more than parts and then people wouldn't part them out, you understand?

All the parts guys are doing is filling a demand. A demand you yourself have taken advantage of. You don't like it, don't support it. You don't want to do it with your guitar, then don't do it. What's the problem then and what is "the point of discussion".

This thread seems juvenile, like crying over spilled milk.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:40 am

Yes - you're right. I am a child - as are others who are concerned about the disappearance of intact vintage shortscales.

And as you pointed out - I HAVE taken advantage of the parting out of these guitars - although I am unsure of whether the parts I acquired were from a junker with issues, or an under the bed guitar.

And, I agree regarding supply and demand, and the demand of parts driving the market.

I've got some milk to clean up somewhere...

theshadowofseattle · Post by **theshadowofseattle** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:59 pm

Dice wrote:the disappearance of intact vintage shortscales.

lol it's like you're talking about the rain forest or some shit.

Mang, it's just guitars, and not even particularly nice ones. Old all original shortscale Fenders feel kind of flimsy and sound kind of alright. They usually benefit in terms of sound and playability from the "butchering" of getting pieced out and built into new instruments.