Eyeballin the Duo-Sonic, it doesn't seem offset, certainly not by the Leo Patent definition. But the other day someone on another thread asked if Duo-Sonics are offset so I did the string test...wrap string around the narrowest section of the body, draw it taught, and see if it's perpendicular to the neck.
It seemed offset maybe one degree or so. It was really hard to tell for sure so anyone care to replicate the test with your Duo and let us know what you think?
Duo-Sonic, offset?
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Doug
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Duo-Sonic, offset?
Doug
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Doug
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There are three types of definition for OSG.DanHeron wrote:What makes it offset? I thought it was the waist...
The first is lore, the traditions and current assumptions of the guitar playing community; whatever we've meant by an OSG without applying universally accepted, objective criteria.
The second is de jure, what some group with authority decides is an OSG, using some criteria. For example, the Patent on Leo Fender's guitars uses criteria to control who can make & sell guitar bodies, like the Jazzmaster or Jaguar, that meet certain design specifications.
The third is de facto, the application of scientific standards to determine whether a guitar is technically offset.
Regarding the Duo-Sonic, our lore may say it's not an OSG because the waist appears to be symmetrical (or there may be large groups of guitarists who have assumed it's an OSG because the general body shape is assymetrical). I think the term "offset guitar" actually comes from our lore.
De jure, the Duo-Sonic meets some of the patent criteria such as ergonomic contour and general assymetry which distributes weight so there's balance while playing seated. But the waist does not meet the 10 degree criterion (I think it's 10) of the patent. N.B. I don't think the patent uses the term "offset".
De facto, the Duo-Sonic waist might meet the string test but we need replications of the string test (or some other measure based on objective science) which determines if the angles are right angles or not.
I'm sure this summary is not the only or best way to explain how OSG is defined.
Someone please add more.
Last edited by Doug on Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
Doug
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Fran
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I'd usually go with the butt of the guitar being offset along with the waist (the whole guitar). If the offset waist alone definition is right then osg may as well change their name because it would include most guitar designs, certainly not exclusive to Fender or Jags and Jazzys as the site suggests anyway.
the whole point of the offset guitar is the waist though, not the bottom. the waist being offset was a design feature implemented to allow the guitar to balance more easily when sitting with the guitar. the bottom makes no difference at all.
duo-sonic IIs and music master IIs don't say it but are clearly the same body. the earlier duo-sonics and musicmasters I would not consider offset. the 90s and CV duo-sonics I would not consider offset either as they are based on the pre-CBS models. any offset in the waist of these guitars is negligible. and enough so that Fender would come up with a whole new guitar design (offset guitars) marketed as having a significant functional advantage over their previous guitars.
IMO, the offset waist is a bit of a gimmick actually, as you can similarly shift the balance of the guitar by bringing both cutaways down like on an SG. it just happens that the whole offset design looks really cool.
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IMO, the offset waist is a bit of a gimmick actually, as you can similarly shift the balance of the guitar by bringing both cutaways down like on an SG. it just happens that the whole offset design looks really cool.
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Doug
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Fran, I'm not sure where the waist-only definition comes from but I think it's lore. For example, many musicians who favor Jazzmasters and Jaguars quote the one Leo Fender patent criterion of 10-degrees offset waist to explain what they mean by OSG. They usually do not reference the other criteria of the patent.Fran wrote:I'd usually go with the butt of the guitar being offset along with the waist (the whole guitar). If the offset waist alone definition is right then osg may as well change their name because it would include most guitar designs, certainly not exclusive to Fender or Jags and Jazzys as the site suggests anyway.
Using a de jure approach to defining OSG, you could rely on the Fender patent. But to faithfully use the patent, you'd accept all the criteria which, yes, would open up the definition to include lots more than the 10-degree offset waist guitars.
When a group tends to use only one criterion from the patent, then I believe that's lore trumping both de jure and de facto.
Doug
For it to be on the Mustang Fender must have considered it to be just the waist. The term 'offset' applies properly to the two inward contours on the body, but not so neatly to the slanted butt. It is just the waist.
From memory the Mustang is about 14 degress. There's a neat picture somewhere showing the outlines and angles. Ultimately though, it really doesn't matter that much. They look good and they're very comfortable to play.
From memory the Mustang is about 14 degress. There's a neat picture somewhere showing the outlines and angles. Ultimately though, it really doesn't matter that much. They look good and they're very comfortable to play.
Shabba.