TOM on mustang, why?

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:35 pm

i asked this on the j.s. boards since it seems to be the standard mod over there. i have never found it very useful except on one of my servicemens, mainly cuz the o.g. bridge was a straight peice of shit that didn't intonate at all, and since the neck was 4 inches off the body i didn't need to shim.
anywho, i asked, "WHY?" And the only reason that made any sense to me was that it prevents string choke on the high and low e. ok, that is cool
other explanations included, "it looks better" and "its easier to palm mute" "it increases string tension and thus improves tuning stability" tho the person in question had thier bridge locked down.... which makes no fucking sense to me at all.
does anyone here actually have a logical need for the TOM over the mustang bridge, especially on the mustang(the question was posted in the mustang section)
im not trying to start shit, im just wondering if i am somehow missing something with this.

BoringPostcards · Post by **BoringPostcards** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:06 pm

how in the hell would it be easier to palm mute??

The tom on my Fender Mascis Jazzy is not in any way easier to palm mute than any of the standard Mustang bridge equipped instruments that I've owned or played, in fact the Mustang bridge is far more comfortable to palm mute, as it's all rounded off and has no grub screws to stick up in the way. Toms have sharp rectangular saddles that can cut the shit out of you if you come down on the wrong angle to strum or whatever.

nonsense.

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:09 pm

that was kind of my thought as well.... if i could smack the one guy and just call him a fan boy then i could get it over with, but the flatter radius to prevent string choking does make sense to me.
here is the link
http://www.jag-stang.com/forum/topic/66 ... a-mustang/

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:53 am

now im just fucking irritated.
what I said. if you have the vibrato locked down then did you have the posts taped off as well?(on the mustang bridge)
perhaps if you didn't have them taped then while palm muting you were able to push the bridge back or forth with the force of your hand, hence the tuning issues.

what he said. nope i had them taped, the TOM puts more tension so it helps keep it tight.

what i said. Posted Today, 11:26 AM
how do you figure the tom puts more tension on the strings? i would like to hear this.

what he said. Because if you have the tom like i do, not routed so it stays at one height and is un adjustable, and you shim the neck, it gives it a sharper angle from the bridge to nut, and with having the trem bolted flat to the plate, it gives more of a brake angle from the bridge to the top of the tom. the sharper angles put more tension.

what i said. ok, no. from nut to bridge. no. im sorry, no. the physics of this do not add up one bit. i really am trying to understand where you are comming from, but its just not plausible. the greater break angle DOES NOT increase the tension or feel of the strings. the longer the scale vs the string gauge DOES control the tension of the strings. unless we have very different ideas of what tension is. you sir, are wrong.

at this point im ready to fight him. honestly, no matter what bridge you have on any guitar the tension from the nut to the bridge WILL NOT FUCKING CHANGE!!! unless of course you have a floyed rose, bend the g-string, then the b string will have less tension from the bridge naturall giving in from the increased pressure or rather the pull from bending the string.

im at a fucking loss. this.... this.... FUCK FUCK FUCK

iCEByTes · Post by **iCEByTes** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:23 am

got tom on my surfstang
i got mustang bridge on my jag-stang
and i find more comfortable mustang bridge
i canÂ´t find problems on mustang bridge , unless you strum like a monster or have mental problemns are are incapable fine adjust the screws and intone the bridge witch is complete utterly easy whit an octave tun

HNB · Post by **HNB** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:39 am

This was my reply.

Yeah sharper break angle using a TOM doesn't increase tension. That is mostly string gauge and scale length. (Like how upping or dropping string gauge can require truss rod adjustment because of tension change.)

I don't mind TOM's. I have one on my purple Mascis because it came that way. I have added them to a few guitars. I don't like shimming my necks though and I like low action, so I haven't used them in awhile. Jamming some scrap cardboard credit cards, or wood shavings just doesn't appeal to me. I would rather find a bridge equivalent that doesn't need to be shimmed like a modified Mustang bridge, Jaguar/Jazzmaster bridge, Mastery, etc.

While personal tastes and aesthetics play a big role in any guitar mod, I think many would be fibbing just a little if they didn't admit a certain famous grunge guitarist famous for using Mustangs modded with TOM's didn't have anything to do with it. (Not all of course, but quite a few.)

Of course there are the Gibson crossover crowd who like the strings being spaced closer together from using Gibsons and are looking for that.

Sobriquet · Post by **Sobriquet** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:44 am

That guy's kidding himself. The answer to your question is "teh Kurdtz."

Noirie. · Post by **Noirie.** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:15 am

iCEByTes wrote: unless you strum like a monster or have mental problemns

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:35 am

sounds bassier and adds more oomph

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:50 am

robert(original) wrote:now im just fucking irritated.
what I said. if you have the vibrato locked down then did you have the posts taped off as well?(on the mustang bridge)
perhaps if you didn't have them taped then while palm muting you were able to push the bridge back or forth with the force of your hand, hence the tuning issues.

what he said. nope i had them taped, the TOM puts more tension so it helps keep it tight.

what i said. Posted Today, 11:26 AM
how do you figure the tom puts more tension on the strings? i would like to hear this.

what he said. Because if you have the tom like i do, not routed so it stays at one height and is un adjustable, and you shim the neck, it gives it a sharper angle from the bridge to nut, and with having the trem bolted flat to the plate, it gives more of a brake angle from the bridge to the top of the tom. the sharper angles put more tension.

what i said. ok, no. from nut to bridge. no. im sorry, no. the physics of this do not add up one bit. i really am trying to understand where you are comming from, but its just not plausible. the greater break angle DOES NOT increase the tension or feel of the strings. the longer the scale vs the string gauge DOES control the tension of the strings. unless we have very different ideas of what tension is. you sir, are wrong.

at this point im ready to fight him. honestly, no matter what bridge you have on any guitar the tension from the nut to the bridge WILL NOT FUCKING CHANGE!!! unless of course you have a floyed rose, bend the g-string, then the b string will have less tension from the bridge naturall giving in from the increased pressure or rather the pull from bending the string.

im at a fucking loss. this.... this.... FUCK FUCK FUCK

he's right though, he just got the terminology all wrong. a sharper break angle from the bridge to the tailpiece increases the "feeling" of tension but really it changes string "compliance".

pretty common mistake among guitar nerds.

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:24 pm

the tension would be how taught the string is. if the string is tuned 440 standard E, then it doesn't matter. plain and simple. does not fucking matter.
as far as a jaguar, or jazzmaster the TOM helps with string jumping. thats just common sense.
on a MUSTANG however (unlike icey) it is completely uneeded unless you seek higher action for the sole reason of not choking out when you bend from one side of the neck to the other.

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:30 pm

string compliance is a separate thing though you big silly

read this http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/percepti ... ocId234250

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:36 pm

alright here we go, this is better and shorter:

http://www.luthierforum.com/index.php?/ ... g-tension/

Compliance: ~ the stretchability of the strings. ie: Tight strings and a short bend to reach a desired pitch. OR soft easy to press down but long stretch to get that bend up to pitch when stretching on them strings. How "compliant" the strings are.

Compliance is determined by the "after length" which is the distance between the bridge and tailpiece or the nut and the tuners)...longer = softer string feel when cording and the string needs to be stretched farther across the fret to reach the desired note. Shorter after length = stiffer but much shorter distance to bend across the fret by comparison.

Compliance and tension are two different things, although most erroneously call them both tension. Two strings of the same gauge may have the same tension on them, but be of different compliances.

To change or adjust compliance, since the bridge cannot be moved, the tail piece must be adjusted to alter the length of the string between the bridge and the tailpiece there by changing the stiffness or softness ~ the compliance of the string.

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:42 pm

More on break angles and the effect on compliance...

http://030be21.netsolhost.com/WordPress ... eak-angle/

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archiv ... 33923.html

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:56 pm

george stop trying to stick up for the prick, i came to cry on the shortscale boards cuz i thought you doodes would have my back, jump on or GET TEH FUK!

altho i do like the links posted, things to consider for sure.

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:02 pm

well knowing the difference between tension and compliance now raises you above the majority of guitar nerds.

you're welcome

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:05 pm

i wish i was in my shop so i could grab a few different bridges and just throw together something so i could test this all out for myself. SCIENCE!

George · Post by **George** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:12 pm

string trees take advantage of this principle but its a very slight change

i mean most applications to change compliance are minimal really

NickS · Post by **NickS** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:13 pm

George wrote:http://030be21.netsolhost.com/WordPress ... eak-angle/

+1, with the comment on compliance from Chris W ("An engineer's take")

robroe · Post by **robroe** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:29 pm

the only reason i would ever replace a mustang bridge is if its one from japan with the rattley small saddles.
and even then i have never done it because i couldn't be assed about rattle. to me, thats the sound of the guitar. its supposed to rattle.
but they fixed that with the current mustangs. so fuck it